Wow, it feels like nobody read the article. Findings:
- high blood pressure leads to a lot of deaths
- people that spend more time in the sun have lower blood pressure
- skin cancer is caused by sun exposure, but it kills far, far less people than high blood pressure
- people that spend more time in the sun have a lower rate of dying from skin cancer than people who spend less time in the sun!
Summary: more sun exposure makes you less likely to die on at least two fronts!
It's really very simple. You skin adapts to sunlight and doesn't burn if you increase your exposure gradually, and then you get some amazing benefits from it!
What I got from this is if we mandate the hospitals open their rooms to the sun, the new correlation will cause people to avoid the sunlight because "it leads to more deaths"
I made a small little web app calculator for myself and my family to figure out how long we could stay outside without needing sunscreen based on current UV and skin type. I use it daily in the summer and a couple thousand people use it every month also. You can check it out at https://sunburntimer.com. It's also free and open source software, github link in footer.
Denver, CO, USA resident here -- this looks _super_ useful and I'm likely to start using it heavily. Our weather here is usually very outside-encouraging (if getting hotter over the years) and our UV is _ridiculous_; I see the index hit 11 and 12 with some regularity. Thanks for the link!
Looks like the weather might be a bit off, I imagine from your upstream provider. In Indianapolis, all stats look correct except it says we have thunderstorms. Couldn't be a clearer day and nothing on the radar.
The article seems to be a meta analysis of a bunch of conflicting research to support a narrative that we don’t really know shit.
And fair, we don’t.
But a couple of things we do know that weren’t covered - egregiously so - is that aging is UV damage. Sometimes called photoaging, wrinkles, sun spots, discoloration, fine lines, grey hair, all of that shit that you associate with someone visibly looking old is sun damage.
So the picture that the article paints of some pasty nerds in offices shielding themselves from all UV and thus: they might as well be smoking… it doesn’t even touch on why people might be doing this.
Both kurgezadt and veritasium did some really great videos on photoaging and it’s worth checking out if this is new information to you.
I often embarrass my daughter when she has some new friend over. If the topic comes up, I give a demonstration. I'm 62 and I've never tried to get a tan and work indoors, and I haven't had a serious sunburn in close to 40 years. On the other hand, I lived spent the last 20 years in Austin, TX. I mow the yard and I ride a bike and in the summer months I put on sunblock before doing the bike rides an sometimes mowing.
The exposed parts of my arms look like I'm 62 -- freckles, some age spots, the skin has lost a lot of elasticity. But then I roll up my T-shirt sleeve to expose my shoulder and my skin is like it was when I was 25: not just pale, but no freckles, no age spots, still supple.
Pro golfers look a good 10-20 years older than their real age sometimes fwiw. In contrast to most other pro athletes in indoor disciplines who generally look better than their age. There's also examples of truckers who spent most of their career with the window rolled down and you can tell straight up what side of the road they drove on.
I first took sun exposure seriously after backpacking and spending time with other young travellers in hostels. It was apparent who spent their time exposed to the sun, I remember a girl my age who was in the middle of a multi-year cycle tour, and although I envied her journey, her skin looked quite rough. I decided that if I ended up doing that, I'd get one of those cycle helmet brim visors and would probably just cover my face during a lot of the riding portions.
Then I met a man who did kayak tours of a city. He was awesome, but really leathery due to the 20 years in a boat without shade and having the UV reflections off the water. Your skin cancer risk is off the charts at that point.
Those drivers don't even need to have the window rolled down as far as I know. That's because most door auto glass lets UVA rays through and that's what causes premature aging. If you want to block those UVA rays, you would need to apply some kind of additional film to the side window.
There’s plenty, though please evaluate the veracity of their claims for yourself, I’m not a scientist nor do I excel at parsing scientific articles. Here’s one I’ve come across after a few minutes which references many others https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10111...
If hair greying was mostly caused by UV damage, I would expect that the pattern of greying would be even, and begin on the top of the head.
In contrast (based on my own unscientific observations!) greying typically begins in small areas, and often on the temples - not what I'd expect if caused by UV damage.
When most people think of age-related hair greying (which you referenced in your original post), they think of the phenomenon whereby hair follicles stop producing pigments that colour hair.
This is distinct from UV bleaching of the pigments in the hair.
Does anyone know whether UVA or UVB is more conducive to producing vitamin D naturally? A quick search shows me that it is mainly UVB that's responsible for that, but unfortunately, this is what gets blocked out by glass windows and sunscreen. On the other hand, UVA is what causes early aging.
So this is just an unfortunate situation because I don't think there's a way of just getting UVB into you in a safe way.
The article explains that it is much safer than not getting UVB. Nothing in this universe is completely safe, but the evidence is that getting UVB is bar far safer than not getting it
I think this all stems from Baby boomers controlling the narrative. Baby boomers had an insane relationship with the sun. Getting crispy brown tan, using tanning oils, using that metal collar to blast sun directly into their face, and frequenting tanning beds were viewed as totally normal and healthy things.
Big surprise they all got skin cancer. Then they swung the pendulum all the way back and now preach 24/7 sunscreen and never letting the sun touch you.
The article doesn't make really controlled findings. There's an argument to be made that the increase to diseases isn't purely lack of vitamin D but lack of exercise.
Our ancestors got lots of Vit D but they also got lots of exercise while absorbing the sun.
I still don't think it's going to be wise to go out and just bake in the high UV of early afternoons but rather it's important to go outside early to mid morning or late afternoon and absorb some sun without copious amounts of sunblock.
I have heard that some Asian or European sunscreens have some UV blockers that are much more stable than the ones that are mainly used in sunscreens available in the USA. So if you’re using one of these, the need to reapply isn’t as much of a concern. The only thing is that they aren’t FDA approved.
Some examples I have heard of are “ethylhexyl triazone”, “diethylamino hydroxybenzoyl hexyl benzoate”, and “bemotrizinol”.
EDIT: The last chemical on my list was actually approved by the FDA this month (June 2026).
Yeah, lack of Vitamin D may or may not be a problem (well, obviously in extreme cases it leads to rickets, but that's rare). But skin cancer unquestionably is a problem, and not infrequently a deadly one. Pick your battles.
It’s great that people are finally talking about this. It should have been obvious that sun exposure without sunscreen is needed to some extent. If you’re blocking the UV all the time, then how could you possibly be getting the minimum UV exposure that you do need. But people have become absolutely obsessed with sun protection.
Sunscreen isn't a 100% block, though. In fact it's advertised by what proportion of the UV it blocks. And in general it's far more common to have too much sun exposure than too little, and in the areas where people have too little, it's not exactly the norm to wear sunscreen every time you step outside.
I don't know of anyone using sunscreen from the moment they wake up until they go to sleep. Guaranteed that even the best user will still receive a healthy amount of UV even if they refresh every few hours. As far as I'm concerned sunscreen is a 10am-5pm endeavor, not needed before or after
Worth noting here for any readers new to UV guidelines that the above rule isn’t necessarily helpful for you. I’m currently traveling in an area that is 8:30am-4:30pm and live in an area that’s 10-6 pm in the summer and shifts throughout the year.
The actual rule is derived from your location’s safe UV index zones, which is found out by determining what local time the UV Index <= 2. Above 2, wear some amount of protection.
Clouds block a decent amount of UV on average, but it’s much less consistent than you might expect. 9/10 you might be completely fine with no sunscreen and then get a horrible sunburn the tenth, with no apparent visual distinction between them.
Wow, it feels like nobody read the article. Findings:
- high blood pressure leads to a lot of deaths
- people that spend more time in the sun have lower blood pressure
- skin cancer is caused by sun exposure, but it kills far, far less people than high blood pressure
- people that spend more time in the sun have a lower rate of dying from skin cancer than people who spend less time in the sun!
Summary: more sun exposure makes you less likely to die on at least two fronts!
It's really very simple. You skin adapts to sunlight and doesn't burn if you increase your exposure gradually, and then you get some amazing benefits from it!
What I got from this is if we mandate the hospitals open their rooms to the sun, the new correlation will cause people to avoid the sunlight because "it leads to more deaths"
I made a small little web app calculator for myself and my family to figure out how long we could stay outside without needing sunscreen based on current UV and skin type. I use it daily in the summer and a couple thousand people use it every month also. You can check it out at https://sunburntimer.com. It's also free and open source software, github link in footer.
Denver, CO, USA resident here -- this looks _super_ useful and I'm likely to start using it heavily. Our weather here is usually very outside-encouraging (if getting hotter over the years) and our UV is _ridiculous_; I see the index hit 11 and 12 with some regularity. Thanks for the link!
Looks like the weather might be a bit off, I imagine from your upstream provider. In Indianapolis, all stats look correct except it says we have thunderstorms. Couldn't be a clearer day and nothing on the radar.
This is awesome thank you for making this!
Related:
Current guidelines for sun exposure are unhealthy and unscientific – research (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31471416 - May 2022 (335 comments)
The article seems to be a meta analysis of a bunch of conflicting research to support a narrative that we don’t really know shit.
And fair, we don’t.
But a couple of things we do know that weren’t covered - egregiously so - is that aging is UV damage. Sometimes called photoaging, wrinkles, sun spots, discoloration, fine lines, grey hair, all of that shit that you associate with someone visibly looking old is sun damage.
So the picture that the article paints of some pasty nerds in offices shielding themselves from all UV and thus: they might as well be smoking… it doesn’t even touch on why people might be doing this.
Both kurgezadt and veritasium did some really great videos on photoaging and it’s worth checking out if this is new information to you.
I often embarrass my daughter when she has some new friend over. If the topic comes up, I give a demonstration. I'm 62 and I've never tried to get a tan and work indoors, and I haven't had a serious sunburn in close to 40 years. On the other hand, I lived spent the last 20 years in Austin, TX. I mow the yard and I ride a bike and in the summer months I put on sunblock before doing the bike rides an sometimes mowing.
The exposed parts of my arms look like I'm 62 -- freckles, some age spots, the skin has lost a lot of elasticity. But then I roll up my T-shirt sleeve to expose my shoulder and my skin is like it was when I was 25: not just pale, but no freckles, no age spots, still supple.
Pro golfers look a good 10-20 years older than their real age sometimes fwiw. In contrast to most other pro athletes in indoor disciplines who generally look better than their age. There's also examples of truckers who spent most of their career with the window rolled down and you can tell straight up what side of the road they drove on.
I first took sun exposure seriously after backpacking and spending time with other young travellers in hostels. It was apparent who spent their time exposed to the sun, I remember a girl my age who was in the middle of a multi-year cycle tour, and although I envied her journey, her skin looked quite rough. I decided that if I ended up doing that, I'd get one of those cycle helmet brim visors and would probably just cover my face during a lot of the riding portions.
Then I met a man who did kayak tours of a city. He was awesome, but really leathery due to the 20 years in a boat without shade and having the UV reflections off the water. Your skin cancer risk is off the charts at that point.
Truckers, plural? Is there an example that isn’t William McElligott from the famous photo[1]?
Edit: self answer, yes[2] (left side!)
[1]: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trucker-accumulates-skin-damage...
[2]: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/health/lorry-driver-ages-drama...
Those drivers don't even need to have the window rolled down as far as I know. That's because most door auto glass lets UVA rays through and that's what causes premature aging. If you want to block those UVA rays, you would need to apply some kind of additional film to the side window.
Who cares about your skin looking a little older when it prevents cardiovascular related deaths??
I've not heard that grey hair is sun damage.
Do you have any sources for that?
If you compare President Obama photos (2008) to President Obama photos (2016) you may conclude that he spent most of his time lounging on the beach?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:20081217_PRESSER-504...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:President_Obama_and_...
There’s plenty, though please evaluate the veracity of their claims for yourself, I’m not a scientist nor do I excel at parsing scientific articles. Here’s one I’ve come across after a few minutes which references many others https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10111...
After a quick skim, that article seems to be talking about something other than typical age-related greying. More photobleaching.
From the conclusions:
> Sun radiation affects hair properties as color, luster, mechanical resistance, the content of proteins and others.
TLDR Yes it impacts color. Further reading can be found in the 75 studies that can be found in the references section.
If hair greying was mostly caused by UV damage, I would expect that the pattern of greying would be even, and begin on the top of the head.
In contrast (based on my own unscientific observations!) greying typically begins in small areas, and often on the temples - not what I'd expect if caused by UV damage.
Now I'm curious why it starts on the temples (it's where mine started too, then my fringe)
When most people think of age-related hair greying (which you referenced in your original post), they think of the phenomenon whereby hair follicles stop producing pigments that colour hair.
This is distinct from UV bleaching of the pigments in the hair.
Does anyone know whether UVA or UVB is more conducive to producing vitamin D naturally? A quick search shows me that it is mainly UVB that's responsible for that, but unfortunately, this is what gets blocked out by glass windows and sunscreen. On the other hand, UVA is what causes early aging.
So this is just an unfortunate situation because I don't think there's a way of just getting UVB into you in a safe way.
The article explains that it is much safer than not getting UVB. Nothing in this universe is completely safe, but the evidence is that getting UVB is bar far safer than not getting it
I think this all stems from Baby boomers controlling the narrative. Baby boomers had an insane relationship with the sun. Getting crispy brown tan, using tanning oils, using that metal collar to blast sun directly into their face, and frequenting tanning beds were viewed as totally normal and healthy things.
Big surprise they all got skin cancer. Then they swung the pendulum all the way back and now preach 24/7 sunscreen and never letting the sun touch you.
The article doesn't make really controlled findings. There's an argument to be made that the increase to diseases isn't purely lack of vitamin D but lack of exercise.
Our ancestors got lots of Vit D but they also got lots of exercise while absorbing the sun.
I still don't think it's going to be wise to go out and just bake in the high UV of early afternoons but rather it's important to go outside early to mid morning or late afternoon and absorb some sun without copious amounts of sunblock.
So everything in moderation? Cool, glad my philosophy still applies.
Moderation is good, just don't overdo it...
Extreme tension leads to breakage. Something something in buddhism about not trying to put too much tension in a bow or it'll break.
Also known as the middle way.
Moderation is a great philosophy.
> something in buddhism about not trying to put too much tension in a bow or it'll break
Perhaps you are referencing AN 6.55 Sona Sutta.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.055.th...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135382922... this is better source on the underlying study
Do we really have to reapply every 2 hours?
I have heard that some Asian or European sunscreens have some UV blockers that are much more stable than the ones that are mainly used in sunscreens available in the USA. So if you’re using one of these, the need to reapply isn’t as much of a concern. The only thing is that they aren’t FDA approved.
Some examples I have heard of are “ethylhexyl triazone”, “diethylamino hydroxybenzoyl hexyl benzoate”, and “bemotrizinol”.
EDIT: The last chemical on my list was actually approved by the FDA this month (June 2026).
Coming from the skin cancer capital of the world (Australia) - no, no it is not
Australia is kind of an exception. You’ve got a super outdoor culture, a bunch of fair-skinned people, thin ozone, and very clear skies.
Yeah, lack of Vitamin D may or may not be a problem (well, obviously in extreme cases it leads to rickets, but that's rare). But skin cancer unquestionably is a problem, and not infrequently a deadly one. Pick your battles.
No. It is terrible on noodles. Every brand.
Yeah, but it is better than margarine?
I can't believe it's not better.
It’s great that people are finally talking about this. It should have been obvious that sun exposure without sunscreen is needed to some extent. If you’re blocking the UV all the time, then how could you possibly be getting the minimum UV exposure that you do need. But people have become absolutely obsessed with sun protection.
Sunscreen isn't a 100% block, though. In fact it's advertised by what proportion of the UV it blocks. And in general it's far more common to have too much sun exposure than too little, and in the areas where people have too little, it's not exactly the norm to wear sunscreen every time you step outside.
I don't know of anyone using sunscreen from the moment they wake up until they go to sleep. Guaranteed that even the best user will still receive a healthy amount of UV even if they refresh every few hours. As far as I'm concerned sunscreen is a 10am-5pm endeavor, not needed before or after
Worth noting here for any readers new to UV guidelines that the above rule isn’t necessarily helpful for you. I’m currently traveling in an area that is 8:30am-4:30pm and live in an area that’s 10-6 pm in the summer and shifts throughout the year.
The actual rule is derived from your location’s safe UV index zones, which is found out by determining what local time the UV Index <= 2. Above 2, wear some amount of protection.
That's basically sun up to sun down, here.
It's been completely grey, overcast, and raining here all day and the UV index sat between 3 and 5.
The worst sunburn I ever got was on a boat while overcast. I don't trust them clouds no more.
Clouds block a decent amount of UV on average, but it’s much less consistent than you might expect. 9/10 you might be completely fine with no sunscreen and then get a horrible sunburn the tenth, with no apparent visual distinction between them.
Ya, the relationship between UV and sunlight is strange and unintuitive. For that reason I use a UV widget on my lock screen.
I find that being exposed to the value (e.g. 4) while being able to see the suns effect (e.g. cloudy) gives me a better feel for conditions.
(2019)
A bit unclear - it says
> Weller’s largest study yet is due to be published later in 2019
But in the header, it also says
> Updated May 31, 2024
I'd still love to know whether there has been further research in the meantime.
And https://web.archive.org/web/20260000000000*/https://www.outs... seems to suggest 2021. I guess we'll put that above, although we had 2019 in the 2022 thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48715020) :)
It was published early 2019, maybe late 2018.
Searching for the title of the article ("Is sunscreen the new margarine?") makes it easy to pinpoint: there is a open letter responding to the article, dated January 15, 2019. https://www.asds.net/Portals/0/PDF/LetterToTheEditor-Outside...
Ok, let's go with 2019!
tl;dr you probably should get a few minutes of sunlight daily on your unexposed skin without sunscreen for the "health gains"
(you can also wear clothes to block sun instead of sunscreen so you don't necessarily need sunscreen at all)