Wanted to mention that Sailfish has a lot of closed-source components, especially UI-related, despite the overall marketing/"vibe" making it look very open. If anything, AOSP (Android) is more open than Sailfish. I don't think this has changed with Sailfish 5, see e.g.:
I don't think this is true at all? AOSP is completely open source modulo driver blobs (which Sailfish has too) and Google services.
One can make a fully functional system, modulo drivers, out of only open-source components using AOSP. It's not possible to do this using Sailfish; the compositor, UI libraries (Silica), and most of the "core" apps are still closed source.
Ahh, thanks for the correction, it's the window manager that's closed (lipstick-jolla-home). Regardless, I will stand by my statement that a fully open-source build of AOSP is significantly more complete and useful than a fully open-source build of Jolla.
If we're going to start counting forks, we get to count LineageOS and GrapheneOS for Android, and then the goalposts really move.
I think people got too used to bundling by Apple and Google. For most of the core apps there are good and open source alternatives available.
The main point is that AOSP as a system (modulo firmware) is open source and SailfishOS is not. Also, even though Sailfish has an Android compatibility layer (though only for official devices), compatibility is most likely always going to be worse than 'real' Android.
That said, I hope that Jolla Phone becomes a success, more competition is good. Hopefully being funded better will move them to fully open source the base system.
Huh. I really don't see the point of this, vs something like GrapheneOS.
Edit: I'm well aware of the differences between typical Linux and Android (especially the security architecture!), and I'm willing to make some sacrifices in the name of FOSS... but only if it's actually FOSS.
Given how sensitive information most people have on their phones (banking, chats, and whatnot), it's a disaster in the making.
The typical answer is "but I'll only use open source apps that I trust". Sandboxing doesn't only protect you against rogue apps, it primarily protects you against 0-days in apps that you do trust.
/etc configuration instead of the insanely bad system properties crap, glibc instead of bionic (which has even worse POSIX compliance than Windows), ld instead of linker, FHS, not having a batshit insane No-Sockets rule, not needing to port software that already compiles and runs on GNU/Linux, X11/Wayland/Arcan, system services aren't entangled with Java, normal IPC mechanisms instead whatever the fuck binder is. The list goes on.
Android (and by extension GrapheneOS) uses Linux as a kernel, but it lives in its own world and is completely unrecognizable. I'd say it's even more alien than macOS. For most users, the differences don't matter. If you're a programmer or a sysadmin with reasonable expectations, you feel like a fish out of water very fast. And I cannot honestly the changes are for the better.
> /etc configuration instead of the insanely bad system properties crap, glibc instead of bionic [...]
The practical downside, however, is that this phone does not natively run Android apps, while GrapheneOS runs all Android apps bar those that require Play Integrity. Desktop GNU/Linux programs are either unusable or a terrible experience on a mobile device with a small screen and no mouse.
I read somewhere that the owners have ties to russia, but the most important thing is that they’re marketing very aggressively through posts that slander GraphenOS.
(I actually couldn't find information on their nationality, they might be e.g. Ukrainian or second-generation Russian immigrants; Micay is somewhat Russian-sounding too, btw, although I think he's known to have been born in Canada).
I know the people behind SailfishOS, they’re not like, friends or anything: just ex-Nokia developers who got fucked by Microsoft (like I did, btw, which is how I know of them).
I feel like the big tech smartphone duopoly would have a reason to spread such rubbish, but its so patently obvious that I doubt they are so stupid.
It’s a sensitive topic for the US because it is an an EU-backed and funded project to help move away from US tech, which undermines US power and interests globally. which is why you might see some unusually intense anger/vitriol hurled their way and Goebbels-level fabrications
Went from iPhone (with PostMarketOS on PinePhones as tests) to /e/OS on a CMF Nothing installed by Murena to GrapheneOS on 2nd hand Pixel 8.
I'm not advocating any of those specifically but I do recommend you take whatever step you are comfortable with to a saner mobile technology lifestyle.
IMHO it's a worthwhile learning journey that is probably less challenging and more empowering than you can imagine.
I like the idea of these new phones that might be a bit more privacy centered, and even with some different OSes but I think the biggest problem for a lot of adoption is the compatibility with things like banking apps, 2fa etc. It makes it quite an impossible daily driver thanks to some strange rules.
2FA is not an issue. Many, but not all banking apps work fine. I have an android phone for 3 apps which I need about once a month. Daily driving a linux phone since 2016.
I think the challenges here exist but the reality is overblown to be honest, the vast majority of banking apps (everything that isn't struck through in that list) work just fine.
Fully agree the concern is discouraging adoption though. I would love to see more of a solution here, it seems like purely anti-competitive behaviour by Android that will block competitors emerging.
Personal experience with Jolla:
I bought their first mobile (still have it somewhere) that would be a "Linux Phone that run android app".
Wanted to support it and was ready to expect some bugs but it did not work all.
No support at all, most of android app did not work. The OS was not finished that it was already obsolete. And now there are doing it again like the first one never existed.
I have zero trust in this company
I still have my first Jolla from 2016. Still works and got updates till 2 years ago. The android stuff I used was minimal but worked fine except for bluetooth and nfc. I build my own mostly.
Google is so anti open it's the new Microsoft. I hope for a day when my phone runs nixos with Qt apps. Qt is so much better than java that I'm sure I'll be able to make do in 4gb what android takes 16gb for.
In the era of hallucinated apps, this doesn't even seen like an imaginary wishful scenario.
Stuff gets put together in Finland to form the final device they ship, even if the parts aren't made in Finland. I think a dictionary lookup for "assemble" might help if this explanation did not.
Well, assembly can mean that a pick and place machine is assembling individual capacitors onto a raw circuit board, or it can mean a teenager putting the battery in and putting the battery cover on before packaging it. That’s why “look it up in a dictionary” comments aren’t helpful. We aren’t confused about the word, we are confused what it means in this use because it can have a VERY broad definition.
Pick and place PCB assembly is very different from the final assembly of batteries in terms of who is capturing value and building a reasonable moat. Their sales angle is around European autonomy.
Low wage workers putting batteries in phones is not that, but PCB assembly is much closer to that.
I don't know anything but I thought it's the opposite of that? I thought pick-and-place machines are like fancier 3D printers, and they can be bought and copied anywhere sufficiently advanced, but low-wage assembly workers are organic AGIs that require multi year culture building and prompt engineering know-hows accumulation to be able to achieve and maintain even usable yield rates and cannot be spun up overnight, especially after a workplace was once torn down.
Or am I just spoiled by apparent local regional abundance of cheap roboticists?
Seems much more likely to me that the main board of the phone is assembled in China and the battery and the case, and perhaps the screen are added in Finland. But it would be nice to know for sure.
Exactly this (when nitpicking the phrasing). Is putting the finished unit in the box "assembly" of the delivered product?
OTOH, I'm not sure how much it matters. Apple products are "designed in California" (which is a bit of a lie to begin with), and very much assembled overseas.
Of more interest is how few units they've pre-sold compared to mainstream phones. I wish them well, but I doubt they'll change history.
It's almost like a "ship of Theseus" problem. If something arrived in Finland for assembly that could theoretically be disassembled, does the final product count as being assembled in Finland? What even counts as "assembling"?
Is putting the finished unit in the box "assembly" of the delivered product?
I've seen "Packaged in $country" on boxes before, so I suspect they are two different things.
Like food made in Canada that shows up in American chain stores being labeled "Distributed by QFC." There's lots of rules about this sort of thing.
Reminds me of back in the late 90's when Wal-Mart was all rah-rah about "Made in the USA!" on all of its products. Then my company bought every employee a Sam's Club membership and the cards were all marked "Litho en Mexico."
Another almost good phone without a mini jack :( User-replaceable battery, SD card port, mini jack, touchscreen that works consistently. Do I really ask for that much?
I'm also a bit dissapointed by that, but the community sponsored me a phone and I've been testing usb dongles. They're actually surprisingly good for no money. I think if I was a daily phones user I would probably be using bt.
Mal, from Jolla has ports to from the 2 till the 5, I believe. I used an FP2 for about a year. Big difference is andoid app support, not present on the fp ohones.
I still can't take a device with a mid-range Mediatek seriously. Probably from my XDA days, where just its presence meant locked bootloaders and no kernel sources.
Congrats on selling them but "assembled in EU" can't be the main selling point.
Wanted to mention that Sailfish has a lot of closed-source components, especially UI-related, despite the overall marketing/"vibe" making it look very open. If anything, AOSP (Android) is more open than Sailfish. I don't think this has changed with Sailfish 5, see e.g.:
- https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/sailfish-os-clarifying-claims...
- https://docs.sailfishos.org/Develop/Open_Source/
They are (slowly) releasing more and more components
https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/open-sourcing-proceeding/2468...
https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-weather/
https://github.com/sailfishos/jolla-camera
It's still more open than AOSP
> It's still more open than AOSP
I don't think this is true at all? AOSP is completely open source modulo driver blobs (which Sailfish has too) and Google services.
One can make a fully functional system, modulo drivers, out of only open-source components using AOSP. It's not possible to do this using Sailfish; the compositor, UI libraries (Silica), and most of the "core" apps are still closed source.
The compositor is open (Lipstick) : https://github.com/sailfishos/lipstick
And OSS projet based on the SFOS core exist : https://nemomobile.net/, https://github.com/nemomobile-ux
Ahh, thanks for the correction, it's the window manager that's closed (lipstick-jolla-home). Regardless, I will stand by my statement that a fully open-source build of AOSP is significantly more complete and useful than a fully open-source build of Jolla.
If we're going to start counting forks, we get to count LineageOS and GrapheneOS for Android, and then the goalposts really move.
If I remember correctly a lot of AOSP core apps have been discontinued though.
I think people got too used to bundling by Apple and Google. For most of the core apps there are good and open source alternatives available.
The main point is that AOSP as a system (modulo firmware) is open source and SailfishOS is not. Also, even though Sailfish has an Android compatibility layer (though only for official devices), compatibility is most likely always going to be worse than 'real' Android.
That said, I hope that Jolla Phone becomes a success, more competition is good. Hopefully being funded better will move them to fully open source the base system.
Yes and most people don't realize that the current "AOSP" apps are the LineageOS apps.
A true AOPS image is missing most core Apps.
I think you mean less. Since AOSP is fully open?
Huh. I really don't see the point of this, vs something like GrapheneOS.
Edit: I'm well aware of the differences between typical Linux and Android (especially the security architecture!), and I'm willing to make some sacrifices in the name of FOSS... but only if it's actually FOSS.
If what you want is android and you have privacy concerns, GrapheneOS is probably the best you can get.
Then again, SailfishOS is a linux with much of the usual linux stuff like userland with bash, coreutils, glibc, systemd, wayland, pulseaudio etc.
And way less security, sandboxing is far more limited and the default profile looks pretty much YOLO:
https://github.com/sailfishos/sailjail-permissions/blob/mast...
Given how sensitive information most people have on their phones (banking, chats, and whatnot), it's a disaster in the making.
The typical answer is "but I'll only use open source apps that I trust". Sandboxing doesn't only protect you against rogue apps, it primarily protects you against 0-days in apps that you do trust.
My xperia 10 iii was 280€(+50€ OS) vs 500€++ for a pixel.
But I hate phones. All I want is navigation, sms/call, signal, steam and firefox.
You might be interested in the callback:
https://commodore.net/callback/
It's pretty cool looking! Very optimistic about it.
/etc configuration instead of the insanely bad system properties crap, glibc instead of bionic (which has even worse POSIX compliance than Windows), ld instead of linker, FHS, not having a batshit insane No-Sockets rule, not needing to port software that already compiles and runs on GNU/Linux, X11/Wayland/Arcan, system services aren't entangled with Java, normal IPC mechanisms instead whatever the fuck binder is. The list goes on.
Android (and by extension GrapheneOS) uses Linux as a kernel, but it lives in its own world and is completely unrecognizable. I'd say it's even more alien than macOS. For most users, the differences don't matter. If you're a programmer or a sysadmin with reasonable expectations, you feel like a fish out of water very fast. And I cannot honestly the changes are for the better.
> /etc configuration instead of the insanely bad system properties crap, glibc instead of bionic [...]
The practical downside, however, is that this phone does not natively run Android apps, while GrapheneOS runs all Android apps bar those that require Play Integrity. Desktop GNU/Linux programs are either unusable or a terrible experience on a mobile device with a small screen and no mouse.
I think he was asking about advantages, not "how is it similar to a Unix system from the 80s?"
I read somewhere that the owners have ties to russia, but the most important thing is that they’re marketing very aggressively through posts that slander GraphenOS.
> they’re marketing very aggressively through posts that slander GraphenOS
I would really appreciate it if you could give some references - any at all - to back this claim.
All I have seen is GrapheneOS folks (or probably just a certain individual affiliated with the GrapheneOS org) accusing them of doing this.
You mean that GrapheneOS has ties to Russia? https://ised-isde.canada.ca/cc/lgcy/fdrlCrpDtls.html?p=0&cor...
(I actually couldn't find information on their nationality, they might be e.g. Ukrainian or second-generation Russian immigrants; Micay is somewhat Russian-sounding too, btw, although I think he's known to have been born in Canada).
Jesus christ, what is this FUD?
I know the people behind SailfishOS, they’re not like, friends or anything: just ex-Nokia developers who got fucked by Microsoft (like I did, btw, which is how I know of them).
I feel like the big tech smartphone duopoly would have a reason to spread such rubbish, but its so patently obvious that I doubt they are so stupid.
It’s a sensitive topic for the US because it is an an EU-backed and funded project to help move away from US tech, which undermines US power and interests globally. which is why you might see some unusually intense anger/vitriol hurled their way and Goebbels-level fabrications
Went from iPhone (with PostMarketOS on PinePhones as tests) to /e/OS on a CMF Nothing installed by Murena to GrapheneOS on 2nd hand Pixel 8.
I'm not advocating any of those specifically but I do recommend you take whatever step you are comfortable with to a saner mobile technology lifestyle.
IMHO it's a worthwhile learning journey that is probably less challenging and more empowering than you can imagine.
Careful with preordering, they seem to ignore requests to cancel & the community is rather hostile to any form of criticism
thanks for this. as soon as I realized it was a European company I already had some doubts going in. Won't be ordering.
I like the idea of these new phones that might be a bit more privacy centered, and even with some different OSes but I think the biggest problem for a lot of adoption is the compatibility with things like banking apps, 2fa etc. It makes it quite an impossible daily driver thanks to some strange rules.
Unfortunately for the foreseeable future you'd need a cheap Android or iOS device for those apps and whatever you want as daily driver.
I don't think you NEED to open your online banking on your phone every day. Just use cash and cards.
2FA should be easily available on any OS
2FA is not an issue. Many, but not all banking apps work fine. I have an android phone for 3 apps which I need about once a month. Daily driving a linux phone since 2016.
There's a compatibility list at https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa....
I think the challenges here exist but the reality is overblown to be honest, the vast majority of banking apps (everything that isn't struck through in that list) work just fine.
Fully agree the concern is discouraging adoption though. I would love to see more of a solution here, it seems like purely anti-competitive behaviour by Android that will block competitors emerging.
Perhaps my bank is special (Triodos), its app works just fine on the Jolla.
Personal experience with Jolla: I bought their first mobile (still have it somewhere) that would be a "Linux Phone that run android app". Wanted to support it and was ready to expect some bugs but it did not work all. No support at all, most of android app did not work. The OS was not finished that it was already obsolete. And now there are doing it again like the first one never existed. I have zero trust in this company
I still have my first Jolla from 2016. Still works and got updates till 2 years ago. The android stuff I used was minimal but worked fine except for bluetooth and nfc. I build my own mostly.
Have they unlocked the bootloader? Can I install a different OS on it?
Does anyone know when they'll sell their company and product to russia again?
They will sell in Russia when it’s legal to do so, just like every other company.
Are you talking about European companies? There are already many companies in Russia doing extremely well like Korean and Japanese companies
After they make Zelensky pres.
I hope Ubuntu Touch has native support for this, as it's a great OS with massive potential and active community.
If this Sailfish phone is 700 and Commodore's is 500, I know which Sailfish device I can pay attention to.
What do you mean?
I hope it eats you if you don't wear your Christmas clothes
Google is so anti open it's the new Microsoft. I hope for a day when my phone runs nixos with Qt apps. Qt is so much better than java that I'm sure I'll be able to make do in 4gb what android takes 16gb for.
In the era of hallucinated apps, this doesn't even seen like an imaginary wishful scenario.
> Google is so anti open it's the new Microsoft.
You can unlock a Pixel's bootloader and install GrapheneOS. It would be highly ironic if the Jolla's is locked.
What does "Assembled in Finland" mean?
Stuff gets put together in Finland to form the final device they ship, even if the parts aren't made in Finland. I think a dictionary lookup for "assemble" might help if this explanation did not.
Well, assembly can mean that a pick and place machine is assembling individual capacitors onto a raw circuit board, or it can mean a teenager putting the battery in and putting the battery cover on before packaging it. That’s why “look it up in a dictionary” comments aren’t helpful. We aren’t confused about the word, we are confused what it means in this use because it can have a VERY broad definition.
Pick and place PCB assembly is very different from the final assembly of batteries in terms of who is capturing value and building a reasonable moat. Their sales angle is around European autonomy.
Low wage workers putting batteries in phones is not that, but PCB assembly is much closer to that.
I don't know anything but I thought it's the opposite of that? I thought pick-and-place machines are like fancier 3D printers, and they can be bought and copied anywhere sufficiently advanced, but low-wage assembly workers are organic AGIs that require multi year culture building and prompt engineering know-hows accumulation to be able to achieve and maintain even usable yield rates and cannot be spun up overnight, especially after a workplace was once torn down.
Or am I just spoiled by apparent local regional abundance of cheap roboticists?
Seems much more likely to me that the main board of the phone is assembled in China and the battery and the case, and perhaps the screen are added in Finland. But it would be nice to know for sure.
I read it as "how much is actually assembled in Finland versus arriving pre-assembled?"
Probably things like fixing the mainboards to the casing, putting in batteries, back covers, flashing the software, running hw tests, packaging etc.
the pieces of the phone are put together in the country of finland
Yes, but which pieces are put together there and which are already assembled elsewhere?
Exactly this (when nitpicking the phrasing). Is putting the finished unit in the box "assembly" of the delivered product?
OTOH, I'm not sure how much it matters. Apple products are "designed in California" (which is a bit of a lie to begin with), and very much assembled overseas.
Of more interest is how few units they've pre-sold compared to mainstream phones. I wish them well, but I doubt they'll change history.
there is a legal differentiation between putting a finished product into a box ("packaged in") and assembling component pieces ("assembled in")
It's almost like a "ship of Theseus" problem. If something arrived in Finland for assembly that could theoretically be disassembled, does the final product count as being assembled in Finland? What even counts as "assembling"?
Is putting the finished unit in the box "assembly" of the delivered product?
I've seen "Packaged in $country" on boxes before, so I suspect they are two different things.
Like food made in Canada that shows up in American chain stores being labeled "Distributed by QFC." There's lots of rules about this sort of thing.
Reminds me of back in the late 90's when Wal-Mart was all rah-rah about "Made in the USA!" on all of its products. Then my company bought every employee a Sam's Club membership and the cards were all marked "Litho en Mexico."
What does their website say?
Another almost good phone without a mini jack :( User-replaceable battery, SD card port, mini jack, touchscreen that works consistently. Do I really ask for that much?
I'm also a bit dissapointed by that, but the community sponsored me a phone and I've been testing usb dongles. They're actually surprisingly good for no money. I think if I was a daily phones user I would probably be using bt.
why this over Fairphone?
Mal, from Jolla has ports to from the 2 till the 5, I believe. I used an FP2 for about a year. Big difference is andoid app support, not present on the fp ohones.
> 99€ down payment to lock your October delivery
...
I still can't take a device with a mid-range Mediatek seriously. Probably from my XDA days, where just its presence meant locked bootloaders and no kernel sources.
Congrats on selling them but "assembled in EU" can't be the main selling point.