There was also a very peculiar train crash in the UK just a few days ago. A train hit a stationary train. That shouldn't really happen in this day and age. Sabotage was the first thing that came to my mind.
That's what happens when you ignore critical infrastructure for three decades.
Of course, if the government were to correct the mistakes of the past, it would get worse for another decade. The necessary repairs would cause a lot more delays, and voters would then say "Were giving them so much extra money, and it gets worse? Unacceptable!". So I fear we'll continue to have these problems forever.
For context, in case people are less familiar with German politics:
DB is in a misbegotten state of privatization, started in the 90ies. The government spun it out into a private company but still owns 100% of it. They were trying to pump it up so they could sell it for good money. They did that by skimping on everything including maintenance, to try and make the numbers look good.
Except they never got to whatever magic numbers they wanted before the maintenance debt came rearing its ugly head and now everything is royally screwed. And because it's a private company, there's a whole bunch of barriers limiting how much they can even subsidize the thing at this point.
Not sure if this is better or worse than the UK's Network Rail story, but at the end of the day the only thing that will solve this is if they re-nationalize the tracks & infrastructure. What kind of an idiot thought including that in the privatization is a good idea is beyond me. It's not like you can build a 2nd railway network in order to get free market & competition. (For comparison, imagine privatizing the entire road network, village street to Autobahn.)
> Not sure if this is better or worse than the UK's Network Rail story
“About 72 per cent of Deutsche Bahn’s intercity trains arrived within 10 minutes of their scheduled arrival time in the year to January 2025, compared with 78 per cent of British long-distance trains, according to the FT analysis.
Any interaction with the German rail network is also one of the biggest factors affecting the punctuality of long-distance rail travel in Central Europe” [1].
The UK's railway network was only privately owned from 1994 to 2002 though, everything after that is already under the umbrella of re-nationalisation, which didn't go super well either (my knowledge about that is rather vague). Not sure how useful 2025 numbers are in this context.
>> It’s believed the perpetrators of the attack were supporters of the Russian war effort, as the stop signals were also joined by broadcasts of the Russian national anthem and a speech from Russian President Vladimir Putin. The attacks have some significance to the invasion of Ukraine, as Poland has been a hub for crucial weapons deliveries supporting the defence of Ukraine.
Yes, yes, it's a code of honour not to use the someone' else national anthem, sure. Especially if you need to bolster the population support for some ongoing cause.
My 100 bucks are on an expired certificate in the trust chain. the same kind of issue that took down almost all Verifone payment terminals in Germany in 2022.
It's russian hybrid warfare against Germany. Since invasion of Ukraine there have been numerous cable cuttings on train tracks, several train derailments, some fires.
It has become so bad that police helicopters are regularly patrolling train routes at night to spot sabotage as early as possible. People complain about the flight noise at night which was not there before.
So as a person working in cyber security, I'd put this into the sabotage bucket.
"IT Outage: No train service nationwide. Due to a nationwide outage of the GSMR digital rail radio system, all trains are being held at stations. We are working around the clock to resolve the issue.
Our technicians are working around the clock to resolve the outage.
Please continue to check your travel connection immediately before departure using the travel information service at bahn.de, the DB Navigator app, or by calling the travel information hotline at 030/2970."
It doesn’t surprise me at all. Deutsche Bahn got so bad in the recent years that Switzerland started turning some German trains around at Basel (border) to protect its own timetable from DB delays.
I was at a conference in Frankfurt, traveling back to Amsterdam with my cofounder and got stuck in Oberhausen. We have an early flight tomorrow and there's no trains in NL due to a strike tomorrow morning, so we decided to take an uber home.
At first the delay was 30 minutes. Then 2 hours. After 1h30 with zero updates we decided to bail. Just checked and nothing is moving yet, so we made the right call.
I’m sitting in an ICE in Munich that was supposed to leave a few minutes before I saw this story on HN. First the conductor announced a 30 minute delay because the radio wasn’t working, and then they bumped it to 2 hours. They didn’t say it was a systemwide problem.
In Erfurt since 2,5 hours. Out of office train driver keeps us updated from chats with fellow drivers (their sources say it is due to software update), radio is fixed now and trains processed one after another (starting with super fast ones - Munich > Berlin, e.g. - so the tracks get emptied quickly). Other interesting observations: when our train stopped, all hotels were already fully booked, as were coach tickets (Flixbus) that would run in the early morning. Crazy how fast people react to shocks.
The fallback for GSM-R is the normal GSM network, but according to informed guesses I've read, the handsets still need to authenticate using their GSM-R credentials (it's just normal GSM roaming), and that's failing too.
Signalling still works, so you can let the trains continue to a safe place like a station and then not let them leave until the radio issue is resolved
Current suspicion on the German rails reddit is a software update gone wrong.
My personal suspicion, GSM-R is 90s GSM, they'll likely have a fried HLR & VLR because in any GSM network these are fundamental, without them you can't even get roaming from public phone networks working as there is no way for the public network to authenticate GSM-R subscribers.
The other article is only one sentence long. I guess the OP posted it and later found this that is a better source. (Un)luckily both reached the front page. Usually dang/tomhow will make a cleanup soon to avoid duplication and keep the discussion in a single thread.
It's either that or starlink, some railroads in Germany go through areas without any mobile network signal. Think about how crazy that is in 2026 when everything expects everyone to be online 24/7/365.
There was also a very peculiar train crash in the UK just a few days ago. A train hit a stationary train. That shouldn't really happen in this day and age. Sabotage was the first thing that came to my mind.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gy60gg6k5o
Yes, and just yesterday a passenger train was routed into the path of a freight train due to some points failure. It does make you wonder. https://www.railmagazine.com/news/points-failure-results-in-...
Maybe. OP isn't saying it's necessarily malicious interference though.
The UK buys most of their trains from Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) and just brands them differently.
British person living in Berlin.
Incorrect. They wouldn't fit in the tiny UK loading gauge (profile). UK trains are indeed variants of continental models, but made to custom size.
Deutsche Bahn doesn't manufacture rolling stock. They buy it from Siemens, Stadler, Talgo, Alstom etc...
You can probably buy some of the older rolling stock from DB thought.
> The UK buys most of their trains from Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) and just brands them differently.
This is totally incorrect.
We buy our trains from French/Swiss/German/Spanish/Belgian manufacturers, or build them ourselves in eg Derby.
We do not buy our trains from DB.
Not a stretch to imagine that it is though. Germany has some very effective radical vandals who make statements by interrupting infrastructure.
could still be incompetence, one newspaper says an update has gone wrong
There was a GSM-R outage in the UK last month ago too [0]
[0] https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nationwide-gsmr-outage-...
Word on the german bahn reddit seems to be that a buggy software update is the cause. Remains to be seen if this is the real cause
AI vibes all the place!
If this weren’t Deutsche Bahn, I’d say it’s a cyber attack. Given that this is Deutsche Bahn, though, it may just as well be a maintenance issue.
That's what happens when you ignore critical infrastructure for three decades.
Of course, if the government were to correct the mistakes of the past, it would get worse for another decade. The necessary repairs would cause a lot more delays, and voters would then say "Were giving them so much extra money, and it gets worse? Unacceptable!". So I fear we'll continue to have these problems forever.
> when you ignore critical infrastructure for three decades
To be fair, Deutsche Bahn is currently spending “€107bn between 2025 and 2029” on infrastructure upgrades [1].
[1] https://www.ft.com/content/db75e347-b13b-4753-8130-6301bb55c...
They need to spend at least 3x that and they need to bring redundant workforce to fix Germany. It is completely broken now.
> They need to spend at least 3x that
According to whom?
Look at how much Switzerland spends per capita vs Germany. €477 vs €115. And Swiss kept their infrastructure well unlike Germans.
source: https://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/themen/infrastruktur/inve...
For DB, this type of outage is referred to as "Tuesday".
For context, in case people are less familiar with German politics:
DB is in a misbegotten state of privatization, started in the 90ies. The government spun it out into a private company but still owns 100% of it. They were trying to pump it up so they could sell it for good money. They did that by skimping on everything including maintenance, to try and make the numbers look good.
Except they never got to whatever magic numbers they wanted before the maintenance debt came rearing its ugly head and now everything is royally screwed. And because it's a private company, there's a whole bunch of barriers limiting how much they can even subsidize the thing at this point.
Not sure if this is better or worse than the UK's Network Rail story, but at the end of the day the only thing that will solve this is if they re-nationalize the tracks & infrastructure. What kind of an idiot thought including that in the privatization is a good idea is beyond me. It's not like you can build a 2nd railway network in order to get free market & competition. (For comparison, imagine privatizing the entire road network, village street to Autobahn.)
> Not sure if this is better or worse than the UK's Network Rail story
“About 72 per cent of Deutsche Bahn’s intercity trains arrived within 10 minutes of their scheduled arrival time in the year to January 2025, compared with 78 per cent of British long-distance trains, according to the FT analysis.
Any interaction with the German rail network is also one of the biggest factors affecting the punctuality of long-distance rail travel in Central Europe” [1].
[1] https://www.ft.com/content/d3b6e6b5-eddb-4230-b866-932d284ce...
The UK's railway network was only privately owned from 1994 to 2002 though, everything after that is already under the umbrella of re-nationalisation, which didn't go super well either (my knowledge about that is rather vague). Not sure how useful 2025 numbers are in this context.
Same thing happened in Poland and it was confirmed that Russians did it.
Do you have a link?
Was it similar to what we’re seeing now (nationwide, radio related)?
https://hackaday.com/2023/08/29/polish-railways-fall-victim-...
tl;dr: Trains can be stopped by a transmitting a simple, documented tone sequence over analog radio.
Ah, good, not the same thing then.
Honestly, DB are perfectly capable of clusterf*cking their GSM-R without help from Russia.
> it was confirmed that Russians did it.
>> It’s believed the perpetrators of the attack were supporters of the Russian war effort, as the stop signals were also joined by broadcasts of the Russian national anthem and a speech from Russian President Vladimir Putin. The attacks have some significance to the invasion of Ukraine, as Poland has been a hub for crucial weapons deliveries supporting the defence of Ukraine.
Yes, yes, it's a code of honour not to use the someone' else national anthem, sure. Especially if you need to bolster the population support for some ongoing cause.
These are effective targets for hybrid warfare for that very reason, plausible deniability
Probably someone forgot to renew the TLS certificate.
You may not be far off. Word is that it's a failed software update.
My 100 bucks are on an expired certificate in the trust chain. the same kind of issue that took down almost all Verifone payment terminals in Germany in 2022.
You mean neglect?
Neglect is basically unscheduled maintenance.
Neglect is basically scheduled unmaintenance.
Thirty years of it.
It's russian hybrid warfare against Germany. Since invasion of Ukraine there have been numerous cable cuttings on train tracks, several train derailments, some fires.
It has become so bad that police helicopters are regularly patrolling train routes at night to spot sabotage as early as possible. People complain about the flight noise at night which was not there before.
So as a person working in cyber security, I'd put this into the sabotage bucket.
"IT Outage: No train service nationwide. Due to a nationwide outage of the GSMR digital rail radio system, all trains are being held at stations. We are working around the clock to resolve the issue.
Our technicians are working around the clock to resolve the outage.
Please continue to check your travel connection immediately before departure using the travel information service at bahn.de, the DB Navigator app, or by calling the travel information hotline at 030/2970."
https://www.bahn.de/service/fahrplaene/aktuell
It's a GSM-R issue. See Tagesschau (German): https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gesellschaft/deutsche-bahn-...
>This special mobile communication standard is designed to make communication fail-safe
Mmm, nope.
It did fail safe though?
Interference led to the network stopping, not trains just racing towards each other due to bogus line authorities. That is, by definition, fail-safe
If nothing works, eveything is safe, no?
It doesn’t surprise me at all. Deutsche Bahn got so bad in the recent years that Switzerland started turning some German trains around at Basel (border) to protect its own timetable from DB delays.
Downdetector shows parallel disruption spikes, similar pattern as end of last year, not as widespread yet. https://downdetector.com
A truly chaotic week in Europe, alongside the UK train crash and the unprecedented heat wave.
Any HNer blocked in a DB train who can share with us the experience?
I was at a conference in Frankfurt, traveling back to Amsterdam with my cofounder and got stuck in Oberhausen. We have an early flight tomorrow and there's no trains in NL due to a strike tomorrow morning, so we decided to take an uber home.
At first the delay was 30 minutes. Then 2 hours. After 1h30 with zero updates we decided to bail. Just checked and nothing is moving yet, so we made the right call.
I’m sitting in an ICE in Munich that was supposed to leave a few minutes before I saw this story on HN. First the conductor announced a 30 minute delay because the radio wasn’t working, and then they bumped it to 2 hours. They didn’t say it was a systemwide problem.
I would get out and look for a hotel before all of them get sold out. Probably tomorrow too.
In Erfurt since 2,5 hours. Out of office train driver keeps us updated from chats with fellow drivers (their sources say it is due to software update), radio is fixed now and trains processed one after another (starting with super fast ones - Munich > Berlin, e.g. - so the tracks get emptied quickly). Other interesting observations: when our train stopped, all hotels were already fully booked, as were coach tickets (Flixbus) that would run in the early morning. Crazy how fast people react to shocks.
The same as usual I suppose: stopped at a station in a tiny village, without any information. Train staff will provide water, but that's about it.
That sucks, sorry for this
Same problem happened two years ago. You'd think that would be enough time to figure out a failsafe routine
Seems like the failsafe also failed today.
The fallback for GSM-R is the normal GSM network, but according to informed guesses I've read, the handsets still need to authenticate using their GSM-R credentials (it's just normal GSM roaming), and that's failing too.
Interesting, I just took an OBB train today from Zurich to Amsterdam, which passes through a lot of Germany.
Its return train is currently stuck at Oberhausen.
Downdetector shows parallel disruption spikes, similar pattern as end of last year, not as widespread yet.
https://downdetector.com
Mainly Meta Services, which seem to spike, isn't it? And Google Fiber
A bit more, traderepublic, tiktok, snapchat, X, AWS, CloudFlare
https://xn--allestrungen-9ib.de/en/
These could be based on different scales of numbers since it is midnight in Germany
Ah, now it's more obvious.. True! Thank you
I wonder how they managed to tell trains to stop.
Deutsche Bahn trains stop themselves all the time, no need to tell them
Signalling still works, so you can let the trains continue to a safe place like a station and then not let them leave until the radio issue is resolved
That depends, cab signaling for example needs radio to work
Is it just me or is the webpage broken with a redirect loop between:
* https://www.bluewin.ch/en/news/german-train-service-suspende...
* https://www.bluewin.ch/en/news/german-rail-service-suspended...
Can passengers tell, I thought German trains were always disrupted!
It is telling that I thought “that’s why all trains were late this afternoon” before I realized that the issue occurred only minutes ago.
Honestly can’t tell the difference between this and a regular day r/dbsucks
AP source: https://apnews.com/article/germany-trains-halted-communicati...
@dang please update if you see this
And merge with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48651613
Happened before at a smaller scale, crazy high redundancies in GSM-R mean this is likely sabotage:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_2022_German_railway_at...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM-R
Current suspicion on the German rails reddit is a software update gone wrong.
My personal suspicion, GSM-R is 90s GSM, they'll likely have a fried HLR & VLR because in any GSM network these are fundamental, without them you can't even get roaming from public phone networks working as there is no way for the public network to authenticate GSM-R subscribers.
I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be incompetence at this point.
vibe coding the rail software.
If you know anything at all about the Deutsche Bahn, you'll know that it's most likely self-sabotage, in other words, incompetence.
Duplicate: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48651552
and submitted by the same user sva_
https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=sva_
The other article is only one sentence long. I guess the OP posted it and later found this that is a better source. (Un)luckily both reached the front page. Usually dang/tomhow will make a cleanup soon to avoid duplication and keep the discussion in a single thread.
Gee I wonder which country could be behind it
It's either that or starlink, some railroads in Germany go through areas without any mobile network signal. Think about how crazy that is in 2026 when everything expects everyone to be online 24/7/365.
They aren’t using starlink for safety critical comms
The railroads have their own mobile network, GSM-R, it's in the article...
It's my understanding that most rail/rail collisions are the result of poor communication.