One thing I don't see talked about often is the fact that not all duplication is equal. Duplicated html/xml/markup does not equal template-based boiler plate, which does not equal almost everything else. I'm far more forgiving of duplicate html/markup because that code is so cheap.
This is like saying "A slow leak is cheaper than a burst pipe"
Yes, okay. But with both you will have a bad time cleaning up.
This doesn't mean that you should pick one. There is a third option: good abstractions.
This pattern described in the blog is familiar to me and I think that in general this comes down to inexperienced programmers using too much object oriented programming. Teaching those programmers that they should not abstract is not the solution. It is blocking their growth.
The most difficult codebases are those with every little thing some bespoke abstraction that went through 3 rounds of committee reviews that results in having to click through 12 files to figure out what anything is doing. Factory factory factories each with their own little frankenframework to understand before using anything.
Duplication is often less harmful than abstraction.
Duplications can often be cleaned up over time, bad abstractions can quickly become a bottleneck, that severely slow down everyone working on the project.
I feel like the balance has shifted over the last 30 years, and is speeding up. Semi-automatic and fully automatic re-factoring has made dealing with duplicated code much faster, cheaper and safer. Changing abstraction is still high risk.
Automated re-factoring means you can refactor duplicated code only as long as it is exactly duplicate.
Whereas the whole problem is that when somebody changes 3 out of 10 of the duplicate cases in a simple way that they are no longer exactly duplicate, and then somebody fixes a bug in one of the other 7/10 cases, they can update the bug across the 7 "duplicate" cases but they'll miss the 3 that aren't.
The problem with duplicate code is always when some of the instances get changed/fixed but not all of them. And that when somebody edits one instance, they often aren't even aware of all the other instances.
Abstractions are low-risk, because you know where the code is. If it's the wrong abstraction, you can fix that and know what you're fixing. Whereas with duplicated-yet-modified code, you've now lost the connections between them.
I have regularly watched agents forget to update one duplicated pattern after changing it somewhere else. If it's within a single file or related class, it'll catch it, but if it's off in some other package in the monorepo, it's a crapshoot.
No it's not. This has always been a needlessly iconoclastic rather than sensible suggestion.
At the very least it is not once you're working at the wrong kind of scale.
Once you have an awkward number of customers (more than five and less than a hundred), maintaining duplicated code that should have been abstracted and modularised will only seem cheap if you don't mind that you burn through even junior employees at a pace.
And in the LLM era the wrong kind of scale appears in different ways; code generated and duplicated without proper abstraction and then maintained by an LLM that cannot be trusted to do the same modification each time it encounters a pattern or to have enough of an overview to slowly rescue duplicated code through good abstractions.
I would go as far as to say that any abstraction you can maintain (that is in active maintenance, I mean) is better than code duplication once you are past a de minimis threshold.
Hardly iconoclastic, it's a very sensible suggestion.
It would be iconoclastic if the common sense basic approach would be to start with abstraction. It's not, the common sense default is to write possibly duplicate behavior until you actually discover several cases to abstract away, until you bevalop a sensible idea of which functionality unites them and which doesn't carry over all of them.
>Once you have an awkward number of customers (more than five and less than a hundred), maintaining duplicated code that should have been abstracted and modularised will only seem cheap if you don't mind that you burn through even junior employees at a pace
Maintaining the wrong abstraction, or, god help, abstractions, would be even worse.
> Maintaining the wrong abstraction, or, god help, abstractions, would be even worse.
Hard disagree. When you've had to chase through a change in untold and actually unknown numbers of duplications of code in different permutations and fix them because they are all on fire simultaneously, you'd disagree too. A bad abstraction would at least have had one fire in one place.
> Hard disagree. When you've had to chase through a change in untold and actually unknown numbers of duplications of code in different permutations and fix them because they are all on fire simultaneously, you'd disagree too.
The other end of this spectrum is dealing with the architecture astronaut's up-front abstraction. Totally overengineered for solving the initial requirements, but then constantly needing new hacks to make it cope with new requirements as they come up in the normal course of work.
That's why there's a balance in there, it's somewhere between "always duplicate code even when you know a lot about the problem" and "always write abstractions even when you know very little about the problem."
Both are bad, what you describe is very real, but so is the opposite. That one fire in one place can end up in a total rewrite of numerous layers because the abstraction never anticipated certain things to happen.
Wouldn't most large codebases with poor abstractions just have engineers engineer around them with their own solutions? In a large enough codebase you'd have both the bad abstractions and all the not-quite-duplicate implementations ignoring the bad abstraction?
I'm using bad here loosely, it could be buggy, incorrect, incomplete, insufficient and more; while being owned by someone or some team that's a challenge to work with for various reasons (overloaded, under-resourced, overbearing, etc., etc.).
> Wouldn't most large codebases with poor abstractions just have engineers engineer around them with their own solutions?
Obviously, yes. But it is my experience that this happens more slowly and that API invocations that break when the abstraction is changed are much easier to identify than broader duplicated patterns of code that span many lines and subtly diverge.
And even then those divergences are better because each wrapper around the abstraction is documenting the problem with it. But the abstraction can generally be replaced by one with the same API surface.
(Even if you take into account the fact that any API behaviour ultimately gets relied upon even if undocumented. Which is true.)
To be fair my experience is that of a freelancer and contractor who arrives trying to fix things that have been through many such hands. And I think if these developers had it drummed into their head that any attempt at abstraction would be better than copy and paste, these situations would be more knowable.
Yep, this is why I why I find talking about this tiring. No matter what you say, many people are going to keep reading it as "duplication is always better than abstracting."
IME a bad abstraction results in the same thing, just with a lot of wasted effort coming up with the abstraction first, and a lot more resistance to fixing it because people are too emotionally invested. I’d rather have something clearly chosen for expedience and that no one likes.
The article isn't saying don't dry, it's saying don't force dry. Very big difference and you get ideal maintainability when you ease off a bit but still use it.
> A bad abstraction would at least have had one fire in one place
That's true only for "good" abstractions. Bad abstractions will often require you to change code in all the places using it, requiring you to understand how all of them work and what are their requirements, _all at the same time_.
>A bad abstraction would at least have had one fire in one place.
On the contrary: that's precisely what a bad abstraction would not offer.
Instead it would spread its assumptions to different parts of the system, as every caller, sub-service, etc. would have to change shape to fit in that abstraction's box, however unnatural it is (and we know it would be unnatural, because we already said it's a bad abstraction).
Duplication is just code doing the same thing in several places, and as such it's much easier to make DRY (and much easier after you have N copies to see what should be shared and what should not), compared to re-architecting the whole system to remove a bad abstraction.
No. The duplication is seldomly that clean. It has started to diverge in subtle ways where the question becomes whether that was the intention or not. In the worst possible cases it has resulted in 8000-line functions full of duplication. 're-architecting the whole system to remove a bad abstraction' sounds fear mongering. That never happens.
The major risk/cost is breakage if you must change it but cannot maintain its whole surface even with a shim, right?
But any abstraction ends up with a signature and a name that can quickly be found in code.
The risk of a long-lived duplication losing its shape and being hard to find is much greater. Especially if the code is going through multiple hands.
I once had to pick up a project — a working, fully functional website. I could see, pretty clearly, the work of several people. All but one of them terrible.
The one was a diligent developer who was fully wrong in their abstraction (in fact significantly) but was consistent in how they used it.
The rest had simply worked around that code, copied and re-copied their own modified duplications and let things lose any shape. The result was error-prone stuff.
Clearly either the budget (or the client's capriciousness — a separate issue and arguably the bigger one) scared away the one guy, who I actually wanted to talk to but could not track down. He possibly had the origin story, and I wanted to know why his particular abstraction, which was at odds with the framework, was there. It was good code in the wrong shape, and it clearly used to do more, and that is interesting.
All the expedient people who had decided to avoid his code and just patch in duplicated pieces around it were the problem. There was no form to their solution at all. And that had clearly happened over some time (because you could see several different code styles)
I am confused by this comment. The root problem was the wrong abstraction was implemented. Then it was duplicated. Had there been no abstraction, it would not have been duplicated so readily? Am I missing something?
The same problem exists, and I think is unfathomably worse, when the wrong abstraction is used throughout a code base.
Abstractions are a form of coupling, and coupling can be good, if the components are truly interdependent, and have a well defined domain. The problem with most abstractions, and I’ve seen this time and time again, is that they become brittle, are over used, and the cost of maintaining them grows exponentially with the size of the code base. With the reason for the cost ballooning being the system has disparate components that look interrelated but are absolutely not. Once you give someone a hammer they tend to assume everything is a nail.
The biggest problem, IMHO, is that abstractions are often used where a pattern would be more effective, easier to maintain, and easier to iterate on. And the primary difference between a pattern and an abstraction really comes down to coupling. Patterns remain decoupled, abstractions are tightly coupled.
And to be clear, I will and do use abstractions, when and where they make sense. But only after clear patterns emerge, and it’s been proven that components are truly coupled.
I will gladly die on the hill, that abstractions are measurably worse than duplication an overwhelming amount of the time. They’re often nothing more than a form of premature optimization.
At work there’s been a huge number of duplication in the start of the company and no solid abstraction. So no tests as well. We introduced tests in the current architecture but rewriting code has a huge cost to make sure there is no regression. When we talk about a saas it’s non-trivial with many customers relying on this tool daily as part of their workflow, regressions because of rewrite could be really painful for them. So we must give a greater budget to take the time to make sure nothing major breaks. So there is a debt that is compounding over time because code is added. Duplication is bad and weird/purist abstraction could make the architecture so rigid that rewriting things could generate hard to understand and catch bugs.
It’s hard to find a good balance and it depends on the kind of business and scale of project. Hard to make that a generic advice.
I think all these comments here are kinda talking past each other.
It all depends on the amount of duplication and the complexity of the abstraction. Like you said, no generic advice is possible that clearly separates it into "abstract here" and "duplicatehere".
In your example it sounds like we aren't talking about 2-3 places where duplicate code existed that just needed to be refactored into separate units. It sounds more like a complete disregard for abstraction to move on quickly.
If you see duplicate code and have a good understanding how to solve that then it's totally a good thing. The real problem comes in if you add abstractions without knowing wether they will hold up. And this is where the blogpost comes in. In my opinion 2 duplicates are fine, at 3 you should start thinking or implementing an abstraction if you have a good understanding of the code and usecases.
It's sensible if you have strict control of your duplications. You do have strict control of what is duplicated and where, right?
Write everything twice quickly becomes write everything 4 times once a new change appears, just as quickly as it becomes write everything 8 times, and so on.
I'm afraid there's no sensible soundbite developers can follow blindly.
>Write everything twice quickly becomes write everything 4 times once a new change appears, just as quickly as it becomes write everything 8 times, and so on.
That's a good problem to have. Getting to 4 or 8 or 12, and then pruning it to 1 or maybe 2 or 3 clearly different cases, is better than shoehorning multiple cases into the wrong abstraction, having everything that speaks with them coupled to that and dancing around their assumptions, and then having to untangle that.
In C I used to make it so my standard per-file and per lib code could be cut and pasted to other files/libs without modification. (E.g. every file had a mLocal variable that was file-visibility symbols, every module had a #module define for logging, there was always a mLocal.stats member, etc. ) I think some of this duplicate vs. abstract depends on your languages expressiveness - Rust or Lisp with good compile type power make it possible to squeeze out a lot of duplication that in less expressive languages are just idioms - here’s the five lines to make a syscall, or here’s the skeleton of parsing a portable network buffer into a native object.
Having a lot of if/else in your code is definitely a cost. My weakness isn’t so much the libraries and APIs, but the actual binary - once I have a service that does A very well, and I run into needing A’ I mostly just add in a config line “op_mode = A|A’” and have the else/if chains in the server driving code. Moreso for CLIs that I use myself than production services, but I have added tunables for consistency and replication to datastores to allow new use cases and expand my footprint in the data center.
A good abstraction? As in one? I'd go so far as to say the process of discovering and refining abstractions is the most important part of software engineering. A large project has dozens of abstractions, and some of them are "wrong" at any time, as you discover over time. None are ever perfect. If you wait to stop duplicating code until you have the "right" abstraction, you are just putting off the hard part of developing software and taking on tech debt.
Half of your abstractions are wrong. The hard part is knowing which half.
I once worked at a place with abstractions I found to be beautifully perfect. The people that wrote the base framework had done similar things two or so times previously and got it right the third time. You couldn’t write slow or hard to operate code there without really trying hard.
Good abstraction does one single thing and does it well. Bad abstraction starts from the premise of becoming a dumping ground. If that is the case, the best and ideal scenario is splitting the abstraction into many ones to make the job better.
What if there is no good abstraction for the entire stack of software on each of computers? What if we built a common one because we had to? What if now we get to all make our own with natural language?
But also it's very possible to not realise you needed an abstraction until it catches fire in multiple places.
And quite often it's not you that got the codebase to a hundred customers, is it? Sometimes it is a sequence of fresh-faced young developers who didn't have the authority to say "this duplication is bullshit" and were instead compelled to repeat it.
I think a lot of these discussions happen in nice little blog-post vacuums of progressive thinking, where people can go "mmm, object oriented coding obscures intent and clarity, mmm", blog posts with "an X is a Y", "the unreasonable effectiveness of foobar" etc.
In the real world, every duplication that works sticks for good; there is rarely budget to electively replace code that isn't broken. Until one day it doesn't work. And then… how many times is it actually duplicated? How many of the duplicates diverged? How many of these do we no longer need?
If you read my original comment I said pretty much this, yes.
> I would go as far as to say that any abstraction you can maintain (that is in active maintenance, I mean) is better than code duplication once you are past a de minimis threshold.
I appear to be in a solid minority thinking this. But I'm OK with it. I'm probably not going to write a blog post.
I dislike duplicate code as much as anyone, but bad abstractions can definitely be worse. They add confusion and complexity into a codebase in a way that leads to more and more, and can easily become an evolutionary dead-end where the system is hard to extend because it's hard to understand—usually much harder than is the case with naive duplication.
I've learned to tolerate a small amount of duplicate code for this reason. If the duplication remains small, it's not that harmful, and if it starts to grow, then one has a better shot at finding a good abstraction for it.
I'd recommend clicking through the headline to watch the talk. Metz talks a lot about types of similarity: similarity by coincidence vs similarity due to an actual semantic or functional equivalence.
Code that is coincidentally similar very often diverges in either the short or long term, and DRYing it up aggressively tends to result in functions that have many boolean parameters that each trigger disjoint sets of behavior - which is a bit of a nightmare to maintain due to the high cognitive overhead of remembering how all the interleaved-but-actually-unrelated behaviors should work.
This outcome is low-cohesion code.
It's a useful concept to be aware of - worth clicking through to the actual content of the talk rather than just the headline.
i agree with the author. i argue a preference for loose coupling over centralized abstractions. sure it's pleasing to compress the code, but if the use cases actually are sufficiently divergent (as well as bugs and externally driven changes) ultimately it becomes brittle, littered with edge cases behind if fences and both challenging and daunting to change.
ideal case: support libraries and then very simple duplicated code that is easy to read and modify. critically the core control flow should remain duplicated, but simplified by the support libraries.
It sounds to me like you are describing a good abstraction. This article does not claim that code duplication is better than any abstraction. It claims that code duplication is better than the wrong abstraction. I'm sure this author would agree that a good abstraction is better than code duplication.
But it’s never going to be 1:1 duplication is it? Sometimes it’s better to copy code as a template for something new, rather than try to immediately force a new abstraction.
I agree with you that it’s a truism, but it’s useful advice for people who have a habit of trying too hard to DRY their code. IIRC the author comes from the Ruby world, where DRY was a big thing, and this talk was part of the pendulum swinging back away from this DRY obsession that sometimes just resulted in convoluted code.
You seem to have experience, I dont mind factoring / unifying logic, when done sensibly with enough history in the trenches. It pains me more whenever a young dev comes in and barks "we must merge these two things!" repeatedly without planning for more than two cases and starting to add more and more boolean variables. Crystal makers. Then the obvious issue comes, the two variants weren't that close and now there's one god class trying to handle all forces in one big state.
I agree that LLMs are naturally anti abstraction machines.. I'm often trying to find way to reverse that.
> I agree that LLMs are naturally anti abstraction machines.. I'm often trying to find way to reverse that.
I am a bit of an LLM cynic but I am trying to learn it all, and I have to say I have spent most time trying to work out: how do you explain how a brown-field codebase actually works, in such a way that the LLM won't pervert it through misunderstanding.
It does encourage you towards the "conventional" coding standard for any new project, because you want to use a pattern that it will have seen in its training set.
But for example there are differences of opinion in how wordpress plugins (which have a very complex control flow) should be structured. LLMs are incredible at knowing how WP works, actually, but what is difficult is explaining how your methodology for a large plugin is going to work.
It is a battle — but a useful one because it can be used for, er, studying the comparative belief systems of the LLMs.
The gold standard is code samples. I've got 1000-line convention documents with very simple rules like "Early returns on a single line". Llms sometimes ignore these or misinterpret them in unusual ways.
But if I tell it "read these files that use the same conventions" first, there's no misunderstanding, and the agent also picks up the general "tone" of the code. I have very little to tweak if I've defined the problem well.
Absolutely. I think the bit I still struggle with is finding a way to get them to join my team (which is a team of one very tired person).
A story I like is that in the now lost era of handwriting recognition on PDAs, Jef Raskin concluded that the easiest way to solve the problem was to change handwriting so as to meet the algorithm in the middle.
That is, to find a noticeable simplification of handwriting that people could learn quickly and that eliminated hard-to-process quirks.
I feel I am there with the LLM at the moment, trying to work out what the common ground is.
In my experience, the answer is always "It Depends." That's about the only thing that I can hang "always" on.
It really depends on the exact type of code we're working with, and what our objectives are.
In my case, I often use object inheritance. It's a damn cheap way to DRY. However, when people hear "inheritance," they often think "polymorphism." There's a really big difference between the two, but popular culture has jammed them into one ball, and it's not worth the agita, to try to explain the difference.
But if you are doing optimization, long stacks can be your enemy, and inheritance tends to have long, windy stacks.
In these cases, the copy/pasta method may well be the best approach.
My general rule is to start refactoring once you have three copies of the code.
Starting with abstraction when you are only beginning something rarely works well and leads to code bases littered with interfaces having only one implementation.
Abstracting the code when you have two copies does not always pay off, especially when you end up not needeing more than just two copies anyway.
But once you have three copies, it's indeed time to start generalizing.
I think you applied this idea into the era of LLMs but consider an abstraction that takes in multiple god structs for branches it may or may not call in the case you are looking at and has a lot of if conditions that explode in combinatory complexity across a deep call chain. Now the bottle neck is that you need to call this function 144 times a second. That is where you start to have clusters of hot code paths where the latency stacks depending on the angle the god structs come in.
Not sure what LLMs do here, I don't vibe code
I am applying it to LLMs on the basis of twenty years of seeing smaller programming shops tie themselves in knots by using duplication to avoid developing an abstraction that would help them because they were unsure of it.
Everyone always thinks duplication is fine when you can bill the modifications by the hour. But they never think to understand that the reason they've had so many employees is that they've turned their change process into firefighting all the different versions of the same code and all these young developers burn out from the sheer anxiety of not knowing where all the little fires are.
I once had to rescue a site that had become a victim of its own popularity, that was written by subcontractors who clearly believed that duplication is better than the wrong abstraction.
Until one day, along came a change — MySQL 4 to MySQL 5 — and a significant duplicated query no longer worked due to its new, proper strictness.
The problem was compounded; not only was the broken pattern in hundreds of places where it had sat, stable and predictable, but the pattern was broken because it, itself, was avoidance of another abstraction that would solve it.
They quit: they said they couldn't and wouldn't fix it. It had always worked how they had done it, and it would have to stay on MySQL 4 (which the hosting provider refused to accommodate).
I don't think it helped that they were severely misguided in their understanding of SQL, but the code had become beholden to duplication and then crippled by a new problem in the duplicated pattern.
I had to first find all the contexts in which that pattern appeared (which required me to spend half a day on a bespoke script) and then work out a new pattern and as few variations of it as possible to fix the duplicated code in each place, because there was no proper budget to rewrite the whole thing. And then I sat at my desk, for days, working through each one, figuring out how to change it to fit the slightly different expression of the pattern.
Even a total bullshit abstraction would have saved that client both time and money. And this is only one of dozens of times I've seen small firms simply duplicate and change code that would later become unmaintainable because of a straw breaking a camel's back.
Again, this is the opposite of what the author argues for, which is waiting for a couple instances before committing to an abstraction. Not duplicating a SQL query across hundreds of places.
I would be curious if the previous coders you're talking about actually cited duplication as a good thing. You seem to be implying they are. But almost every instance I've seen of massive code duplication was just from bad programmers shooting from the hip, not from some ideological stance.
> Again, this is the opposite of what the author argues for, which is waiting for a couple instances before committing to an abstraction. Not duplicating a SQL query across hundreds of places.
Right. But this is a hypothetical, in-a-vacuum situation.
In the real world, your two, three duplicates are in production.
"We really should now de-duplicate this"
"There is not the time or budget, just copy it again; we'll replace all this one day".
> I would go as far as to say that any abstraction you can maintain (that is in active maintenance, I mean) is better than code duplication once you are passed a de minimis threshold.
Pretty much everyone arguing for duplication has argued what you are saying, which is wait to see a few instances of it before committing to an abstraction. No one is saying duplicate everything 100 times. So I don't think this discussion was ever iconoclastic.
The point is it sounds all smart and sophisticated and principled in the abstract environment of a code discussion in a blog post.
In the real world, duplication happens in an emergent way, there isn't the time each time to judge whether it's really time to just quietly abstract that code, you may not get the permission, budget or window to do it, and if you don't stop the rot really early you are locked into the pattern.
But in one of the scenarios I mention earlier, I earned a chunk of money once fixing an issue that emerged in a subcontractor's four or five line duplication that had ended up rippled through a long-lived codebase. A ground truth (MySQL version) changed, and the pattern broke everywhere, including places where it had evolved.
So I tend towards thinking, yes, any three-line pattern that is likely to appear everywhere should, perhaps, be centralised.
It's certainly worthy of serious consideration. Usually pretty easy to maintain the surface of such an abstraction.
The key lesson is that duplicate code is not necessarily "code duplication" - it was always really about abstraction duplication. If two unrelated variables happen to momentarily share a value, it doesn't mean that value should be made common between them, they are fundamentally different things. It would be a confusing lie and error-prone if the code implied they were the same and that efforts should be made for them to be in sync.
Huh? If anything having lots of customers makes the argument for duplication stronger. The issue is almost always once you get huge and 5 product teams are trying to achieve 5 different goals by using the same overwrought abstraction instead of just copying and decoupling. The abstractions that are actually stable end up becoming libraries or platform team owned systems that no one ever really touches.
I believe that "single source of truth" is a principle that should always be followed. If there's duplicated code where it'd be a bug if they diverge, then you should refactor. It creates a long-distance coupling in your code that may be invisible to future developers until a bug emerges.
But with that in mind, I mostly agree with the article: if it's not a violation of "single source of truth", then abstractions are just a convenience. If it starts being inconvenient, then it's not doing its job and there's no reason to use it. It's a serious code smell if a function needs several flags for custom behavior; that means it's probably the wrong abstraction or violating the single responsibility principle. If there is a legit need for lots of customization, an often-good way to handle is to take a function/functor as an argument for the customization. E.g., rather than `solve(f:double -> double, max_iters = 99, x_abs_tol = 1e-15, x_rel_tol = 1e-15, ...)` you can do `solve(f:double -> double, stopping_criteria: StoppingCriteriaClass)`
> I believe that "single source of truth" is a principle that should always be followed
Fundamentally, the article addresses cases where it's not clear yet how many sources of truth there will be. Are the two spots in the code using the same algorithm, or slightly different versions? More importantly, will they change for the same sorts of reasons?
The title adage (correctly, imo) argues that making two different things the same will cause you more pain than making two same things different via duplication. In the latter thing case, the "damage" is just having to make the same changes twice, or doing a refactor to introduce the abstraction. In the former case, you have to keep adding to your abstraction, or undo it. Most crucially, it breaks "locality", which is the only property you really care about when making changes. I just want to make this change and not worry about side effects to unrelated parts of the system.
I used to struggle with abstractions back in my OOP days but since moving pretty much to a purely functional approach I find that code duplication is rare. Just have a function and call it in two parts. The main abstraction issue is then data structures but with TypeScript interfaces being duck typing essentially I run into few problems there as well.
So code duplication because of abstraction issues is rare. Code duplication because of siloed developers is so much more common.
Developers do not really have to be siloed to experience code duplication. When the team size grows past a certain point such that each person is not aware of what every one else is working on, code duplication is quite inevitable. This is the case even if everyone writes functional style code. In fact this just happened last month at work: I wrote a new functional and pure helper function and placed it at the beginning of the file; a week later a colleague told me a similar helper function with substantially the same functionality with a different signature had been written and placed near the end of the same file.
For hobby, I use functional languages, and I find the techniques are the important bits to remember. Most modern languages let you easily stand on functional programming theory. You don't need to know Haskell. Everyone's brain works differently, but the idea of small, simple and occasionally flexible parts building a whole works for me. As opposed to the large complex do it all shape shifting machine.
I assume they mean to call the function from two (or more) parts of the code (i.e locations). It's not immediately apparent why this is meaningfully different than what would be possible in Java though, since ostensibly a function is the same as a method by just moving the callee to the list of parameters. (There are some things in a Java method that you can do that don't translate to most functional languages, like invoking the version of the method from a superclass, but there's nothing forcing you to do any of those from the language perspective, so it seems a bit strange to claim that the language itself is the issue rather than maybe the specific patterns that were chosen, maybe by their coworkers or just not common in the ecosystem).
Mostly just function calling to reduce duplicate code. Dependency injection does start to get abstraction costs again. I use it when necessary but it is annoying and costly when I do.
Echoing the article, anyone who has experienced both will agree: it’s far easier to work with an under engineered code base than an over engineered one.
+1 The worst code I had to maintain was code that tried to follow DRY (without the trying to understand what the original intention of that principle was). The only way out of that mess was widespread code duplication.
Two talks come to mind here: Mike Acton's Data-Oriented Design and C++ [1] and
Brian Cantrill's The Complexity of Simplicity [2].
Mike's talk argues that code solutions need not be modelled on the real world, and that different data creates different problems, which need different solutions. I can't do the talk justice, but it's had a big impact on me.
Brian's talk is about abstraction generally, and how it's difficult to find the "right" abstraction.
> Mike's talk argues that code solutions need not be modelled on the real world, and that different data creates different problems, which need different solutions.
I've always found it odd when even fairly smart engineers sometimes prioritize real-world metaphors over the actual needs of the codebase. Years ago when I was only a few years out of school, I was implementing a connection pool in Rust, and the most reasonable way to implement it was to have the connection hold a weak reference to the pool so that it could get checked back in automatically when dropped. My manager (an extremely experienced engineer) didn't like this idea because "a library holds library books, not the other way around". I didn't feel like this was a compelling reason to design things differently, but he refused to engage with the issue in any way other than through the lens of that metaphor. Eventually the impasse was solved by one of the other managers in my department suggested that while library books don't contain libraries, they do have the name of the library stamped in the back as a reference to where they should be returned, and I guess my manager found this to be a reasonable extension of the analogy. If I were more experienced, maybe I would have recognized that I could find a way to engage with the analogy like the other manager did without ceding the point, but even today I still feel that it was completely bizarre to insist on that as the canonical way to frame things rather than just considering the ramifications of the abstraction in the code and the experience of using the library based on it.
i recall very early in my career i did exactly this. i took what worked duplicated it—my reasoning being that it was far safer to reuse what has been battle tested and leave refactoring at a later stage
it wasn't received well and senior developer told me that 'good developers know exactly what patterns to use all the time before writing any piece of code and that he will clean up my mess'
long story short his refactoring caused what was otherwise a stable system into a complete mess and it reminded me of Nassim Taleb's book
It's definitely an "it depends" thing. It's easy to overabstract. On the other hand, I've also met junior developers who just didn't know how to use function parameters.
Except 9/10 times microservices end up wildly dependent on each other, yielding a distributed monolith. Better to use service oriented architecture and just ship the monolith, you can test easier and skip the extra layers of serialization / deserialization.
I always try to design in a way, that using abstractions/shared logic is optional.
I've worked in too many projects, where every new feature needs to be built on top of existing abstractions, that often lead to severe restrictions if something slightly different is required. I always try to create reusable units/components, that can either be used as intended or replaced by something that behaves slightly different if needed.
Components are not necessarily frontend components, this extends also to backend logic.
Code duplication and 'wrong' abstractions both count themselves amongst the other foibles of programming. But they don't directly produce a cost which can be cheap or expensive.
They produce some other high dimensional intermediate value which can then produce highly variable cost dependent on the domain, goals, and scenario.
As ever, it depends.
The depends is quantifiable, but it doesn't fit in a blog post. Think more along the lines of war and peace.
2016 (up to 2018 or so) may have been the peak of such varied activity in the developer ecosystem, including articles like this, whether it was discussion, ideation, OSS variety, language development.
There has been growth since but it's been concentrated into fewer channels and somewhat industrialized.
I once used code duplication to implement a fourth type of dialog that looked somewhat similar to the others, that were sharing a lot of code, because I felt that although it looked much the same as the others, there was some fundamental difference. Took me about a day to implement. When some other engineer saw this, he spend the next three weeks trying to integrate all of them with some shared class. His work was not completely worthless, because he did find some small bug during all his efforts to avoid any possible code duplication. I already had predicted that it would take a lot effort, but I did not object, because I hoped that he would learn something from it and the next time think twice before always trying to avoid code duplication.
It depends if duplication is accidental or real. I.e. if two taxes are using the same formula, it is accidental. If you use the same physic formula on multipla places, it is real duplication.
Yes. I’m dealing with a graphql, urql, Next, Prisma stack at the moment. Something that would be a handful of lines of code in a different stack ends up being hundreds in this one.
I don't know about you, but I generally don't write code in a vacuum. Other people may have touched it before me. Those other people may have made poor decisions.
Not that I'm immune from choosing the wrong abstraction sometimes. More than once the "other people" was me. We all make mistakes.
The generic repository "pattern" is the prime example of this. There might be CRUD operations shared between repositories, but they should not be that base of every repository.
I've seen this so many times, because in the beginning the CRUD stuff is what you code over and over again and then suddenly business logic emerges and everything breaks down, but the repository prevails because sunk cost fallacy ...
This step should also be parameterized by how many times the duplication has occurred. Refactoring preemptively may lead to poor abstractions, but not refactoring after seeing the exact same thing tens of times would also be weird. See also:
I would argue that _premature_ abstraction is worse than _some_ duplication of code.
Also I’ve seen the kind of codebase that seems to be LZW packed due to the sheer desire to DRY everything out. Not pleasant thing, by the time you goto 10 layers deep on some “helper” function you forgot why you in there.
While I see the point, I think I more often encounter the opposite. Duplication, but not exactly duplication.
Then the "sunk cost fallacy" is not an issue but there is huge maintenance cost and no-one feels like refactoring it. I'd rather refactor bad abstraction than 10x duplication.
but those are exactly the cases where the distinction matters. when you have a situation where you can't duplicate the code exactly, then you really have to look carefully if this is actually the right place for a shared abstraction. i tend to wait and see if i can refactor one or the other to get them to be exact duplicates and only then see if i can fit in a common abstraction. and yes, finding that i later need to make the same change in both places is a sign that a common abstraction is probably the right call.
Triplication tends to be where it becomes more clear what the correct thing to abstract or de-duplicate is.
It's of course possible to functional-ize segments of logic, but then the question of state mutation must be brought up. How isolated are these changes from other parts of the code / system state. Can this be run in parallel or is it something that must be serial? What potential race conditions exist?
Interface over inheritance is the paradigm I try and stick to. I'd rather maintain orthogonal code than code with overuse of inheritance because of over adherence to DRY.
Depends. If the abstraction is just a level of indirection, then it is usually pretty simple to eliminate - just hit “inline function” in the refactoring tool a few times.
On the other hand it is pretty difficult and error prone to consolidate duplicated code which have drifted apart over time.
If in doubt, chose the approach which is simplest and least risk to revert if you discover in the future you made the wrong choice.
I do agree a bad abstraction can cause huge problems. But it’s usually not the kind of abstractions introduced to eliminate code duplication, but the kind of top-down “architecture astronaut” abstractions, where a model is chosen which does not fit the complexity of the problem.
I've seen the pendulum swing between duplication and abstraction a few times in my career, and I'm currently on team "it's usually not that hard to find a good abstraction up front."
IMO it's easier to inline a bad abstraction than it is to consolidate a bunch of subtly different things that should have been abstracted from the beginning.
But I expect people's opinions on this differ wildly based on their personal experiences. Just my anecdotal take.
If you work backward from the schema these sorts of things tend to evaporate before they can become a problem.
Some of the biggest rabbit holes come from naming conventions not aligning across the business and technology silos. If everyone agrees that Customer has exactly 34 attributes, then it is possible to move to the next step of sharing libraries of types across the team. Getting your POCOs/DTOs 1:1 across the board is when the duplication really starts to melt away.
I once had to work with a system that was refactored and abstracted away heavily to use Redux. It didn't work then, the implementation had way too many abstractions, doing any change meant you had to touch dozens of files. It was insanity. Left me with a bitter taste regarding the redux pattern for ever (probably not the pattern's fault).
Over-abstraction is as much of a problem as under-abstraction. If the abstraction isn’t improving your ability to produce good code, it’s a bad abstraction. I’ve worked with a lot of abstraction patterns in a lot of languages over the 30 years of my career. Any of them can be good or bad. Unthinkingly applying them is always a problem.
Unsurprisingly, that goes for just about any idea in software development. I worked in one code base that heard small functions are best, so every function was less than three lines long. You don’t gain anything by replacing `lst.get(0)` with `get_first_item_in_list(lst)` (in fact, understanding becomes much more difficult), but breaking down functions into the smallest units that make sense independently within the business domain can be very helpful, both for understanding and testing.
100% agreed. It's interesting since I see over-abstraction often abused by "clever" engineers (sometimes quite experienced actually). Sometimes I wonder if they do that to make themselves indispensable on purpose and create their silos in the codebase.
I watched a talk by her about this, and this post is missing half of the equation, which is really important:
Having a wrong abstraction means you end up with a class/function/module with a huge amount of configurations through boolean/enum parameters. It's not even clear that all combinations of configurations is even valid. This situation may be simplified by duplicating, and then eliminating code, thus creating more streamlined code for each use case. This may require fixing similar or cross-cutting bugs in multiple places (eg: JSON serialization is stupid, need to hack a workaround), but keeps the business logic changes simple. Maybe a bit more numerous, but the code is able to raise all the scenarios to consider.
Having no abstraction means you may have to change business logic consistently in multiple places, or you have to fix exactly the same misconception (aka a bug) in multiple cases. e.g. tax rate management in a multi-national context. This is also terrible, because you may fix an important problem in one place and forget other places with the same issue. Now you missed 12 potential bugs by fixing one. This can however allow you to discover a true abstraction. Maybe these 12 places should call just one place?
But for code evolving across a team understanding this tension, a bit of duplication while waiting for confirmation that these pieces of code break together and change together is better than just shoving the same 3 if-statements into a function to avoid "line duplication". Concept duplication is more important.
The "99 Bottles of OOP" book mentioned at the bottom was an excellent introduction to refactoring. I highly recommend it if you struggle with finding the right data models for the problems you work on.
This is the biggest lesson I got from LMMs. I have a 1 million LOC vibe coded project that I can only imagine would fit in a few hundred thousand lines. But it's still holding up, I expected some kind of development collapse long before this point.
OP is right that code duplication is far cheaper than the wrong abstraction, but the opposite is also true - the right abstraction is far cheaper than code duplication.
It's made me wonder the same, but most LLM generated codebases haven't been around long enough to judge maintainability. I have noticed issues in some of my more LLM heavy code when I expect a change to be replicated in multiple areas, assuming common code / styling was reused, only to find it wasn't. It's for that reason I can't use LLMs for client codebases without heavy scrutiny of every line generated (for my own hobby projects I'm a lot more lenient)
Well sooner or later I would expect a developer who intimately understands their code base to feel compelled to start refactoring and extracting fitting, meaningful well-leveraged abstractions.
I don't think that will happen anytime soon. Prompts are the code now, and programming languages code is compilation product. Almost nobody optimizes compiled assembly code.
Perhaps "recompilation" - rewrite by replaying all prompts in strict code quality context (linters, complexity & dedup checks) would make better abstractions.
The only problem now is that LLMs are non-deterministic.
> Do you want to iterate using for loop or using .iter().step(2).map()?
This isn't really a good example, assuming both can be used to represent the same thing.
The problem with the wrong abstraction is when your abstraction doesn't let you represent something. Then, because of you've already invested so heavily into it, you start contorting the problem to fit your abstraction and it becomes a shit show.
Code duplication is the wrong abstraction too -- unless it's not really code duplication but code that only happens to be similar for some really "unstable" reason.
I would agree that there are good "de minimis" reasons not to abstract code that isn't ready to be abstracted at all. If the pattern has not settled it shouldn't be forced into an abstraction (beyond those that make sure it is e.g. not vulnerable)
But beyond that, any stable abstraction is better than duplicated code.
I’ve seen code bases that evolved like that. The problem is almost always outside the abstraction that has a pile of conditionals.
Usually, some moron decided to copy paste things a few levels up and then the top half of the system metastasized into two parallel universes of broken garbage.
For instance, one might decide to perform auth later in the flow so unauthorized handlers can run and set a “this requires auth” bit that defaults to false, and the other flow could add a forged auth header before the auth step.
Now, the auth handler needs a “allow forged header” flag and a “already authenticated” flag.
I’ve seen that grow to a half dozen cases until massive production dataloss occurred. A buggy client tried to delete something local to their account without specifying a userid as a parameter (this codebase was garbage!) and deleted the something for all users instead.
I can’t remember how the dataloss was “fixed”, but it definitely wasn’t “all requests go through a simple auth check, and all handlers declare/implement their auth requirements in the same way”.
Getting a design approved to require a user id be specified exactly once for account-level operations was fantasy land for that team. (Most hires with any sort of engineering talent bounced in under a year.)
Anyway the “abstractions are hard so copy paste” approach did provide job security for the lifers on that product. I can’t imagine them holding a job elsewhere, but they were completely immune to layoffs (hostage style).
This is a pretty valid approach if you’re an agent hired to perform industrial sabotage, or if you keep replacing keyboards after you knaw through the corner.
> Code duplication is far cheaper than the wrong abstraction
Very true in some sense, but I continue to encourage DRY-bias because I've literally never seen teams duplicate code responsibly and later dedupe it when it's the right time. 95% of the time this sentiment is quoted to justify shipping quick slop and stable reusable bits are never extracted into a shared lib later.
In my experience if your organization can't commit to doing WET (write everything twice) code then it probably also will fail at doing DRY (don't repeat yourself) code
Maybe this is an area where AI can help identify duplicate code though to show opportunities for de-duping
I prefer the go mantra: a little copying is better than a little dependency.
Abstraction is a vague term when used here. Is a shared function an “abstraction”? It’s more like implementation hiding, maybe some data hiding. But you definitely have a dependency on it now.
Acronyms like DRY are for beginners. Once you get good you know when to break the “rules” (and when not to).
One thing I don't see talked about often is the fact that not all duplication is equal. Duplicated html/xml/markup does not equal template-based boiler plate, which does not equal almost everything else. I'm far more forgiving of duplicate html/markup because that code is so cheap.
This is like saying "A slow leak is cheaper than a burst pipe"
Yes, okay. But with both you will have a bad time cleaning up.
This doesn't mean that you should pick one. There is a third option: good abstractions.
This pattern described in the blog is familiar to me and I think that in general this comes down to inexperienced programmers using too much object oriented programming. Teaching those programmers that they should not abstract is not the solution. It is blocking their growth.
Teach them how to make better interfaces instead.
Related. Others?
The Wrong Abstraction (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35927149 - May 2023 (69 comments)
The Wrong Abstraction (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27095503 - May 2021 (17 comments)
The Wrong Abstraction (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23739596 - July 2020 (240 comments)
The Wrong Abstraction (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17578714 - July 2018 (207 comments)
Prefer duplication over the wrong abstraction - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12061453 - July 2016 (96 comments)
The Wrong Abstraction - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11032296 - Feb 2016 (119 comments)
Too many abstractions are bad. Too many code duplication is bad.
Part of being a good engineer is finding the right balance.
I know engineers who would gladly duplicate code all over the code base to avoid creating a new abstraction.
I know engineers who create polymorphic abstractions for a single caller with a very obvious set of parameters.
So much of wisdom is in finding balance and not being dogmatic about rules.
The most difficult codebases are those with every little thing some bespoke abstraction that went through 3 rounds of committee reviews that results in having to click through 12 files to figure out what anything is doing. Factory factory factories each with their own little frankenframework to understand before using anything.
Duplication is often less harmful than abstraction.
Duplications can often be cleaned up over time, bad abstractions can quickly become a bottleneck, that severely slow down everyone working on the project.
I feel like the balance has shifted over the last 30 years, and is speeding up. Semi-automatic and fully automatic re-factoring has made dealing with duplicated code much faster, cheaper and safer. Changing abstraction is still high risk.
Isn't it the opposite?
Automated re-factoring means you can refactor duplicated code only as long as it is exactly duplicate.
Whereas the whole problem is that when somebody changes 3 out of 10 of the duplicate cases in a simple way that they are no longer exactly duplicate, and then somebody fixes a bug in one of the other 7/10 cases, they can update the bug across the 7 "duplicate" cases but they'll miss the 3 that aren't.
The problem with duplicate code is always when some of the instances get changed/fixed but not all of them. And that when somebody edits one instance, they often aren't even aware of all the other instances.
Abstractions are low-risk, because you know where the code is. If it's the wrong abstraction, you can fix that and know what you're fixing. Whereas with duplicated-yet-modified code, you've now lost the connections between them.
I have regularly watched agents forget to update one duplicated pattern after changing it somewhere else. If it's within a single file or related class, it'll catch it, but if it's off in some other package in the monorepo, it's a crapshoot.
Changing abstraction is a high risk unlike agents refactoring scores of almost identical code.
I thought this discussion was limited to situations where you care about code quality
No it's not. This has always been a needlessly iconoclastic rather than sensible suggestion.
At the very least it is not once you're working at the wrong kind of scale.
Once you have an awkward number of customers (more than five and less than a hundred), maintaining duplicated code that should have been abstracted and modularised will only seem cheap if you don't mind that you burn through even junior employees at a pace.
And in the LLM era the wrong kind of scale appears in different ways; code generated and duplicated without proper abstraction and then maintained by an LLM that cannot be trusted to do the same modification each time it encounters a pattern or to have enough of an overview to slowly rescue duplicated code through good abstractions.
I would go as far as to say that any abstraction you can maintain (that is in active maintenance, I mean) is better than code duplication once you are past a de minimis threshold.
Hardly iconoclastic, it's a very sensible suggestion.
It would be iconoclastic if the common sense basic approach would be to start with abstraction. It's not, the common sense default is to write possibly duplicate behavior until you actually discover several cases to abstract away, until you bevalop a sensible idea of which functionality unites them and which doesn't carry over all of them.
>Once you have an awkward number of customers (more than five and less than a hundred), maintaining duplicated code that should have been abstracted and modularised will only seem cheap if you don't mind that you burn through even junior employees at a pace
Maintaining the wrong abstraction, or, god help, abstractions, would be even worse.
> Maintaining the wrong abstraction, or, god help, abstractions, would be even worse.
Hard disagree. When you've had to chase through a change in untold and actually unknown numbers of duplications of code in different permutations and fix them because they are all on fire simultaneously, you'd disagree too. A bad abstraction would at least have had one fire in one place.
> Hard disagree. When you've had to chase through a change in untold and actually unknown numbers of duplications of code in different permutations and fix them because they are all on fire simultaneously, you'd disagree too.
The other end of this spectrum is dealing with the architecture astronaut's up-front abstraction. Totally overengineered for solving the initial requirements, but then constantly needing new hacks to make it cope with new requirements as they come up in the normal course of work.
That's why there's a balance in there, it's somewhere between "always duplicate code even when you know a lot about the problem" and "always write abstractions even when you know very little about the problem."
Both are bad, what you describe is very real, but so is the opposite. That one fire in one place can end up in a total rewrite of numerous layers because the abstraction never anticipated certain things to happen.
Good faith question: would it?
Wouldn't most large codebases with poor abstractions just have engineers engineer around them with their own solutions? In a large enough codebase you'd have both the bad abstractions and all the not-quite-duplicate implementations ignoring the bad abstraction?
I'm using bad here loosely, it could be buggy, incorrect, incomplete, insufficient and more; while being owned by someone or some team that's a challenge to work with for various reasons (overloaded, under-resourced, overbearing, etc., etc.).
> Wouldn't most large codebases with poor abstractions just have engineers engineer around them with their own solutions?
Obviously, yes. But it is my experience that this happens more slowly and that API invocations that break when the abstraction is changed are much easier to identify than broader duplicated patterns of code that span many lines and subtly diverge.
And even then those divergences are better because each wrapper around the abstraction is documenting the problem with it. But the abstraction can generally be replaced by one with the same API surface.
(Even if you take into account the fact that any API behaviour ultimately gets relied upon even if undocumented. Which is true.)
To be fair my experience is that of a freelancer and contractor who arrives trying to fix things that have been through many such hands. And I think if these developers had it drummed into their head that any attempt at abstraction would be better than copy and paste, these situations would be more knowable.
> engineers engineer around them with their own solutions
When that happens there's a major engineering leadership failure currently in progress, even if engineering leadership isn't aware of it.
Yep, this is why I why I find talking about this tiring. No matter what you say, many people are going to keep reading it as "duplication is always better than abstracting."
IME a bad abstraction results in the same thing, just with a lot of wasted effort coming up with the abstraction first, and a lot more resistance to fixing it because people are too emotionally invested. I’d rather have something clearly chosen for expedience and that no one likes.
The article isn't saying don't dry, it's saying don't force dry. Very big difference and you get ideal maintainability when you ease off a bit but still use it.
> A bad abstraction would at least have had one fire in one place
That's true only for "good" abstractions. Bad abstractions will often require you to change code in all the places using it, requiring you to understand how all of them work and what are their requirements, _all at the same time_.
>A bad abstraction would at least have had one fire in one place.
On the contrary: that's precisely what a bad abstraction would not offer.
Instead it would spread its assumptions to different parts of the system, as every caller, sub-service, etc. would have to change shape to fit in that abstraction's box, however unnatural it is (and we know it would be unnatural, because we already said it's a bad abstraction).
Abstraction is not the same as encapsulation.
> instead it would spread its assumptions to different parts of the system,
But so does duplication, in practice, and it diverges more as it does.
Duplication is just code doing the same thing in several places, and as such it's much easier to make DRY (and much easier after you have N copies to see what should be shared and what should not), compared to re-architecting the whole system to remove a bad abstraction.
No. The duplication is seldomly that clean. It has started to diverge in subtle ways where the question becomes whether that was the intention or not. In the worst possible cases it has resulted in 8000-line functions full of duplication. 're-architecting the whole system to remove a bad abstraction' sounds fear mongering. That never happens.
Ah contraire, mon ami, I am currently in the process of doing just that in many places in my current codebase.
In your mind, what's the cost of the wrong abstraction?
The major risk/cost is breakage if you must change it but cannot maintain its whole surface even with a shim, right?
But any abstraction ends up with a signature and a name that can quickly be found in code.
The risk of a long-lived duplication losing its shape and being hard to find is much greater. Especially if the code is going through multiple hands.
I once had to pick up a project — a working, fully functional website. I could see, pretty clearly, the work of several people. All but one of them terrible.
The one was a diligent developer who was fully wrong in their abstraction (in fact significantly) but was consistent in how they used it.
The rest had simply worked around that code, copied and re-copied their own modified duplications and let things lose any shape. The result was error-prone stuff.
Clearly either the budget (or the client's capriciousness — a separate issue and arguably the bigger one) scared away the one guy, who I actually wanted to talk to but could not track down. He possibly had the origin story, and I wanted to know why his particular abstraction, which was at odds with the framework, was there. It was good code in the wrong shape, and it clearly used to do more, and that is interesting.
All the expedient people who had decided to avoid his code and just patch in duplicated pieces around it were the problem. There was no form to their solution at all. And that had clearly happened over some time (because you could see several different code styles)
I am confused by this comment. The root problem was the wrong abstraction was implemented. Then it was duplicated. Had there been no abstraction, it would not have been duplicated so readily? Am I missing something?
I will reword it slightly, I typed too fast.
The same problem exists, and I think is unfathomably worse, when the wrong abstraction is used throughout a code base.
Abstractions are a form of coupling, and coupling can be good, if the components are truly interdependent, and have a well defined domain. The problem with most abstractions, and I’ve seen this time and time again, is that they become brittle, are over used, and the cost of maintaining them grows exponentially with the size of the code base. With the reason for the cost ballooning being the system has disparate components that look interrelated but are absolutely not. Once you give someone a hammer they tend to assume everything is a nail.
The biggest problem, IMHO, is that abstractions are often used where a pattern would be more effective, easier to maintain, and easier to iterate on. And the primary difference between a pattern and an abstraction really comes down to coupling. Patterns remain decoupled, abstractions are tightly coupled.
And to be clear, I will and do use abstractions, when and where they make sense. But only after clear patterns emerge, and it’s been proven that components are truly coupled.
I will gladly die on the hill, that abstractions are measurably worse than duplication an overwhelming amount of the time. They’re often nothing more than a form of premature optimization.
What’s the difference between a pattern and an abstraction?
At work there’s been a huge number of duplication in the start of the company and no solid abstraction. So no tests as well. We introduced tests in the current architecture but rewriting code has a huge cost to make sure there is no regression. When we talk about a saas it’s non-trivial with many customers relying on this tool daily as part of their workflow, regressions because of rewrite could be really painful for them. So we must give a greater budget to take the time to make sure nothing major breaks. So there is a debt that is compounding over time because code is added. Duplication is bad and weird/purist abstraction could make the architecture so rigid that rewriting things could generate hard to understand and catch bugs. It’s hard to find a good balance and it depends on the kind of business and scale of project. Hard to make that a generic advice.
I think all these comments here are kinda talking past each other.
It all depends on the amount of duplication and the complexity of the abstraction. Like you said, no generic advice is possible that clearly separates it into "abstract here" and "duplicatehere".
In your example it sounds like we aren't talking about 2-3 places where duplicate code existed that just needed to be refactored into separate units. It sounds more like a complete disregard for abstraction to move on quickly.
If you see duplicate code and have a good understanding how to solve that then it's totally a good thing. The real problem comes in if you add abstractions without knowing wether they will hold up. And this is where the blogpost comes in. In my opinion 2 duplicates are fine, at 3 you should start thinking or implementing an abstraction if you have a good understanding of the code and usecases.
"It’s hard to find a good balance and it depends on the kind of business and scale of project".
Exactly. The abstraction purists are not working in the messy, dead line driven real world.
The real rule is probably: duplicate until the abstraction stops looking like a horoscope.
Yeah, "Write Everything Twice" is a pretty common and sensible direction for any codebase
It's sensible if you have strict control of your duplications. You do have strict control of what is duplicated and where, right?
Write everything twice quickly becomes write everything 4 times once a new change appears, just as quickly as it becomes write everything 8 times, and so on.
I'm afraid there's no sensible soundbite developers can follow blindly.
>Write everything twice quickly becomes write everything 4 times once a new change appears, just as quickly as it becomes write everything 8 times, and so on.
That's a good problem to have. Getting to 4 or 8 or 12, and then pruning it to 1 or maybe 2 or 3 clearly different cases, is better than shoehorning multiple cases into the wrong abstraction, having everything that speaks with them coupled to that and dancing around their assumptions, and then having to untangle that.
Duplicated code is by definition LESS coupled.
Yeah, ~"Write Everything Twice"~ “Copy and Paste Working Code” is a pretty common and sensible direction for any codebase
In C I used to make it so my standard per-file and per lib code could be cut and pasted to other files/libs without modification. (E.g. every file had a mLocal variable that was file-visibility symbols, every module had a #module define for logging, there was always a mLocal.stats member, etc. ) I think some of this duplicate vs. abstract depends on your languages expressiveness - Rust or Lisp with good compile type power make it possible to squeeze out a lot of duplication that in less expressive languages are just idioms - here’s the five lines to make a syscall, or here’s the skeleton of parsing a portable network buffer into a native object.
Having a lot of if/else in your code is definitely a cost. My weakness isn’t so much the libraries and APIs, but the actual binary - once I have a service that does A very well, and I run into needing A’ I mostly just add in a config line “op_mode = A|A’” and have the else/if chains in the server driving code. Moreso for CLIs that I use myself than production services, but I have added tunables for consistency and replication to datastores to allow new use cases and expand my footprint in the data center.
Code duplication is cheaper than the wrong abstraction. If you have a good abstraction, you should run with it.
If you haven't figured out a good abstraction at 5-100 customers, God help you.
A good abstraction? As in one? I'd go so far as to say the process of discovering and refining abstractions is the most important part of software engineering. A large project has dozens of abstractions, and some of them are "wrong" at any time, as you discover over time. None are ever perfect. If you wait to stop duplicating code until you have the "right" abstraction, you are just putting off the hard part of developing software and taking on tech debt.
Half of your abstractions are wrong. The hard part is knowing which half.
I once worked at a place with abstractions I found to be beautifully perfect. The people that wrote the base framework had done similar things two or so times previously and got it right the third time. You couldn’t write slow or hard to operate code there without really trying hard.
Good abstraction does one single thing and does it well. Bad abstraction starts from the premise of becoming a dumping ground. If that is the case, the best and ideal scenario is splitting the abstraction into many ones to make the job better.
> Code duplication is cheaper than the wrong abstraction
This is tautological though, it's like saying “starving is much better than eating the wrong food” (for instance: eating quick lime).
Of course you'll always find a way to do things wrong in a way that is costlier than not doing anything.
Sure, but obviously that sentence implies that wrong abstractions are fairly common.
What if there is no good abstraction for the entire stack of software on each of computers? What if we built a common one because we had to? What if now we get to all make our own with natural language?
I disagree.
But also it's very possible to not realise you needed an abstraction until it catches fire in multiple places.
And quite often it's not you that got the codebase to a hundred customers, is it? Sometimes it is a sequence of fresh-faced young developers who didn't have the authority to say "this duplication is bullshit" and were instead compelled to repeat it.
I think a lot of these discussions happen in nice little blog-post vacuums of progressive thinking, where people can go "mmm, object oriented coding obscures intent and clarity, mmm", blog posts with "an X is a Y", "the unreasonable effectiveness of foobar" etc.
In the real world, every duplication that works sticks for good; there is rarely budget to electively replace code that isn't broken. Until one day it doesn't work. And then… how many times is it actually duplicated? How many of the duplicates diverged? How many of these do we no longer need?
> I disagree.
So... the wrong abstraction, no matter how bad, is better than code duplication?
If you read my original comment I said pretty much this, yes.
> I would go as far as to say that any abstraction you can maintain (that is in active maintenance, I mean) is better than code duplication once you are past a de minimis threshold.
I appear to be in a solid minority thinking this. But I'm OK with it. I'm probably not going to write a blog post.
> If you haven't figured out a good abstraction at 5-100 customers, God help you.
This blend of opinion is very naive. Every single project is a business requirement away from having the wrong abstraction in place.
https://xkcd.com/1425/
Good one. See, we did make some serious progress, all you AI haters.
I dislike duplicate code as much as anyone, but bad abstractions can definitely be worse. They add confusion and complexity into a codebase in a way that leads to more and more, and can easily become an evolutionary dead-end where the system is hard to extend because it's hard to understand—usually much harder than is the case with naive duplication.
I've learned to tolerate a small amount of duplicate code for this reason. If the duplication remains small, it's not that harmful, and if it starts to grow, then one has a better shot at finding a good abstraction for it.
I'd recommend clicking through the headline to watch the talk. Metz talks a lot about types of similarity: similarity by coincidence vs similarity due to an actual semantic or functional equivalence.
Code that is coincidentally similar very often diverges in either the short or long term, and DRYing it up aggressively tends to result in functions that have many boolean parameters that each trigger disjoint sets of behavior - which is a bit of a nightmare to maintain due to the high cognitive overhead of remembering how all the interleaved-but-actually-unrelated behaviors should work.
This outcome is low-cohesion code.
It's a useful concept to be aware of - worth clicking through to the actual content of the talk rather than just the headline.
i agree with the author. i argue a preference for loose coupling over centralized abstractions. sure it's pleasing to compress the code, but if the use cases actually are sufficiently divergent (as well as bugs and externally driven changes) ultimately it becomes brittle, littered with edge cases behind if fences and both challenging and daunting to change.
ideal case: support libraries and then very simple duplicated code that is easy to read and modify. critically the core control flow should remain duplicated, but simplified by the support libraries.
It sounds to me like you are describing a good abstraction. This article does not claim that code duplication is better than any abstraction. It claims that code duplication is better than the wrong abstraction. I'm sure this author would agree that a good abstraction is better than code duplication.
I'm afraid this comment reads in a rather gnomic way.
Of course it's a truism if you just say any abstraction that works is a good abstraction.
That is not what I am saying at all. Bullshit abstractions at least let you control the problem. Duplication doesn't.
But it’s never going to be 1:1 duplication is it? Sometimes it’s better to copy code as a template for something new, rather than try to immediately force a new abstraction.
I agree with you that it’s a truism, but it’s useful advice for people who have a habit of trying too hard to DRY their code. IIRC the author comes from the Ruby world, where DRY was a big thing, and this talk was part of the pendulum swinging back away from this DRY obsession that sometimes just resulted in convoluted code.
You seem to have experience, I dont mind factoring / unifying logic, when done sensibly with enough history in the trenches. It pains me more whenever a young dev comes in and barks "we must merge these two things!" repeatedly without planning for more than two cases and starting to add more and more boolean variables. Crystal makers. Then the obvious issue comes, the two variants weren't that close and now there's one god class trying to handle all forces in one big state.
I agree that LLMs are naturally anti abstraction machines.. I'm often trying to find way to reverse that.
> I agree that LLMs are naturally anti abstraction machines.. I'm often trying to find way to reverse that.
I am a bit of an LLM cynic but I am trying to learn it all, and I have to say I have spent most time trying to work out: how do you explain how a brown-field codebase actually works, in such a way that the LLM won't pervert it through misunderstanding.
It does encourage you towards the "conventional" coding standard for any new project, because you want to use a pattern that it will have seen in its training set.
But for example there are differences of opinion in how wordpress plugins (which have a very complex control flow) should be structured. LLMs are incredible at knowing how WP works, actually, but what is difficult is explaining how your methodology for a large plugin is going to work.
It is a battle — but a useful one because it can be used for, er, studying the comparative belief systems of the LLMs.
The gold standard is code samples. I've got 1000-line convention documents with very simple rules like "Early returns on a single line". Llms sometimes ignore these or misinterpret them in unusual ways.
But if I tell it "read these files that use the same conventions" first, there's no misunderstanding, and the agent also picks up the general "tone" of the code. I have very little to tweak if I've defined the problem well.
They don’t have a useful belief system, one of the rookie mistakes of using LLMs is asking them what you “should” do
Absolutely. I think the bit I still struggle with is finding a way to get them to join my team (which is a team of one very tired person).
A story I like is that in the now lost era of handwriting recognition on PDAs, Jef Raskin concluded that the easiest way to solve the problem was to change handwriting so as to meet the algorithm in the middle.
That is, to find a noticeable simplification of handwriting that people could learn quickly and that eliminated hard-to-process quirks.
I feel I am there with the LLM at the moment, trying to work out what the common ground is.
In my experience, the answer is always "It Depends." That's about the only thing that I can hang "always" on.
It really depends on the exact type of code we're working with, and what our objectives are.
In my case, I often use object inheritance. It's a damn cheap way to DRY. However, when people hear "inheritance," they often think "polymorphism." There's a really big difference between the two, but popular culture has jammed them into one ball, and it's not worth the agita, to try to explain the difference.
But if you are doing optimization, long stacks can be your enemy, and inheritance tends to have long, windy stacks.
In these cases, the copy/pasta method may well be the best approach.
Like I said, "It Depends."
My general rule is to start refactoring once you have three copies of the code.
Starting with abstraction when you are only beginning something rarely works well and leads to code bases littered with interfaces having only one implementation.
Abstracting the code when you have two copies does not always pay off, especially when you end up not needeing more than just two copies anyway.
But once you have three copies, it's indeed time to start generalizing.
Over-engineering and "abstraction hell" are very much not iconoclastic concepts
100% agree. 'Code duplication is far cheaper than the wrong abstraction' is a very good candidate for the worst programming article ever.
I think you applied this idea into the era of LLMs but consider an abstraction that takes in multiple god structs for branches it may or may not call in the case you are looking at and has a lot of if conditions that explode in combinatory complexity across a deep call chain. Now the bottle neck is that you need to call this function 144 times a second. That is where you start to have clusters of hot code paths where the latency stacks depending on the angle the god structs come in. Not sure what LLMs do here, I don't vibe code
I am applying it to LLMs on the basis of twenty years of seeing smaller programming shops tie themselves in knots by using duplication to avoid developing an abstraction that would help them because they were unsure of it.
Everyone always thinks duplication is fine when you can bill the modifications by the hour. But they never think to understand that the reason they've had so many employees is that they've turned their change process into firefighting all the different versions of the same code and all these young developers burn out from the sheer anxiety of not knowing where all the little fires are.
I once had to rescue a site that had become a victim of its own popularity, that was written by subcontractors who clearly believed that duplication is better than the wrong abstraction.
Until one day, along came a change — MySQL 4 to MySQL 5 — and a significant duplicated query no longer worked due to its new, proper strictness.
The problem was compounded; not only was the broken pattern in hundreds of places where it had sat, stable and predictable, but the pattern was broken because it, itself, was avoidance of another abstraction that would solve it.
They quit: they said they couldn't and wouldn't fix it. It had always worked how they had done it, and it would have to stay on MySQL 4 (which the hosting provider refused to accommodate).
I don't think it helped that they were severely misguided in their understanding of SQL, but the code had become beholden to duplication and then crippled by a new problem in the duplicated pattern.
I had to first find all the contexts in which that pattern appeared (which required me to spend half a day on a bespoke script) and then work out a new pattern and as few variations of it as possible to fix the duplicated code in each place, because there was no proper budget to rewrite the whole thing. And then I sat at my desk, for days, working through each one, figuring out how to change it to fit the slightly different expression of the pattern.
Even a total bullshit abstraction would have saved that client both time and money. And this is only one of dozens of times I've seen small firms simply duplicate and change code that would later become unmaintainable because of a straw breaking a camel's back.
Again, this is the opposite of what the author argues for, which is waiting for a couple instances before committing to an abstraction. Not duplicating a SQL query across hundreds of places.
I would be curious if the previous coders you're talking about actually cited duplication as a good thing. You seem to be implying they are. But almost every instance I've seen of massive code duplication was just from bad programmers shooting from the hip, not from some ideological stance.
> Again, this is the opposite of what the author argues for, which is waiting for a couple instances before committing to an abstraction. Not duplicating a SQL query across hundreds of places.
Right. But this is a hypothetical, in-a-vacuum situation.
In the real world, your two, three duplicates are in production.
"We really should now de-duplicate this"
"There is not the time or budget, just copy it again; we'll replace all this one day".
> I would go as far as to say that any abstraction you can maintain (that is in active maintenance, I mean) is better than code duplication once you are passed a de minimis threshold.
Pretty much everyone arguing for duplication has argued what you are saying, which is wait to see a few instances of it before committing to an abstraction. No one is saying duplicate everything 100 times. So I don't think this discussion was ever iconoclastic.
The point is it sounds all smart and sophisticated and principled in the abstract environment of a code discussion in a blog post.
In the real world, duplication happens in an emergent way, there isn't the time each time to judge whether it's really time to just quietly abstract that code, you may not get the permission, budget or window to do it, and if you don't stop the rot really early you are locked into the pattern.
So you centralize 3 liners?
I said "beyond a de minimis threshold".
But in one of the scenarios I mention earlier, I earned a chunk of money once fixing an issue that emerged in a subcontractor's four or five line duplication that had ended up rippled through a long-lived codebase. A ground truth (MySQL version) changed, and the pattern broke everywhere, including places where it had evolved.
So I tend towards thinking, yes, any three-line pattern that is likely to appear everywhere should, perhaps, be centralised.
It's certainly worthy of serious consideration. Usually pretty easy to maintain the surface of such an abstraction.
The key lesson is that duplicate code is not necessarily "code duplication" - it was always really about abstraction duplication. If two unrelated variables happen to momentarily share a value, it doesn't mean that value should be made common between them, they are fundamentally different things. It would be a confusing lie and error-prone if the code implied they were the same and that efforts should be made for them to be in sync.
I guess any blog post can remain true if you can optionally take one of the key terms and redefine it so it can also mean the opposite?
Huh? If anything having lots of customers makes the argument for duplication stronger. The issue is almost always once you get huge and 5 product teams are trying to achieve 5 different goals by using the same overwrought abstraction instead of just copying and decoupling. The abstractions that are actually stable end up becoming libraries or platform team owned systems that no one ever really touches.
I believe that "single source of truth" is a principle that should always be followed. If there's duplicated code where it'd be a bug if they diverge, then you should refactor. It creates a long-distance coupling in your code that may be invisible to future developers until a bug emerges.
But with that in mind, I mostly agree with the article: if it's not a violation of "single source of truth", then abstractions are just a convenience. If it starts being inconvenient, then it's not doing its job and there's no reason to use it. It's a serious code smell if a function needs several flags for custom behavior; that means it's probably the wrong abstraction or violating the single responsibility principle. If there is a legit need for lots of customization, an often-good way to handle is to take a function/functor as an argument for the customization. E.g., rather than `solve(f:double -> double, max_iters = 99, x_abs_tol = 1e-15, x_rel_tol = 1e-15, ...)` you can do `solve(f:double -> double, stopping_criteria: StoppingCriteriaClass)`
> I believe that "single source of truth" is a principle that should always be followed
Fundamentally, the article addresses cases where it's not clear yet how many sources of truth there will be. Are the two spots in the code using the same algorithm, or slightly different versions? More importantly, will they change for the same sorts of reasons?
The title adage (correctly, imo) argues that making two different things the same will cause you more pain than making two same things different via duplication. In the latter thing case, the "damage" is just having to make the same changes twice, or doing a refactor to introduce the abstraction. In the former case, you have to keep adding to your abstraction, or undo it. Most crucially, it breaks "locality", which is the only property you really care about when making changes. I just want to make this change and not worry about side effects to unrelated parts of the system.
I used to struggle with abstractions back in my OOP days but since moving pretty much to a purely functional approach I find that code duplication is rare. Just have a function and call it in two parts. The main abstraction issue is then data structures but with TypeScript interfaces being duck typing essentially I run into few problems there as well.
So code duplication because of abstraction issues is rare. Code duplication because of siloed developers is so much more common.
Developers do not really have to be siloed to experience code duplication. When the team size grows past a certain point such that each person is not aware of what every one else is working on, code duplication is quite inevitable. This is the case even if everyone writes functional style code. In fact this just happened last month at work: I wrote a new functional and pure helper function and placed it at the beginning of the file; a week later a colleague told me a similar helper function with substantially the same functionality with a different signature had been written and placed near the end of the same file.
For hobby, I use functional languages, and I find the techniques are the important bits to remember. Most modern languages let you easily stand on functional programming theory. You don't need to know Haskell. Everyone's brain works differently, but the idea of small, simple and occasionally flexible parts building a whole works for me. As opposed to the large complex do it all shape shifting machine.
what exactly is 'calling a function in two parts'
I assume they mean to call the function from two (or more) parts of the code (i.e locations). It's not immediately apparent why this is meaningfully different than what would be possible in Java though, since ostensibly a function is the same as a method by just moving the callee to the list of parameters. (There are some things in a Java method that you can do that don't translate to most functional languages, like invoking the version of the method from a superclass, but there's nothing forcing you to do any of those from the language perspective, so it seems a bit strange to claim that the language itself is the issue rather than maybe the specific patterns that were chosen, maybe by their coworkers or just not common in the ecosystem).
You can do functional in any language. I haven’t designed a new class in years in TypeScript and I’ve been more productive as a result.
Calling a function from two locations is what I meant.
Basically since moving to a functional approach in typescript I find I do not fight abstractions as I used to when I used classes and inheritance.
I read it as „calling it from two places“
I believe they’re referring to callbacks / dependency injection / higher order functions to customize the behavior of a function?
Mostly just function calling to reduce duplicate code. Dependency injection does start to get abstraction costs again. I use it when necessary but it is annoying and costly when I do.
Echoing the article, anyone who has experienced both will agree: it’s far easier to work with an under engineered code base than an over engineered one.
+1 The worst code I had to maintain was code that tried to follow DRY (without the trying to understand what the original intention of that principle was). The only way out of that mess was widespread code duplication.
Two talks come to mind here: Mike Acton's Data-Oriented Design and C++ [1] and Brian Cantrill's The Complexity of Simplicity [2].
Mike's talk argues that code solutions need not be modelled on the real world, and that different data creates different problems, which need different solutions. I can't do the talk justice, but it's had a big impact on me.
Brian's talk is about abstraction generally, and how it's difficult to find the "right" abstraction.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX0ItVEVjHc
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cum5uN2634o
> Mike's talk argues that code solutions need not be modelled on the real world, and that different data creates different problems, which need different solutions.
I've always found it odd when even fairly smart engineers sometimes prioritize real-world metaphors over the actual needs of the codebase. Years ago when I was only a few years out of school, I was implementing a connection pool in Rust, and the most reasonable way to implement it was to have the connection hold a weak reference to the pool so that it could get checked back in automatically when dropped. My manager (an extremely experienced engineer) didn't like this idea because "a library holds library books, not the other way around". I didn't feel like this was a compelling reason to design things differently, but he refused to engage with the issue in any way other than through the lens of that metaphor. Eventually the impasse was solved by one of the other managers in my department suggested that while library books don't contain libraries, they do have the name of the library stamped in the back as a reference to where they should be returned, and I guess my manager found this to be a reasonable extension of the analogy. If I were more experienced, maybe I would have recognized that I could find a way to engage with the analogy like the other manager did without ceding the point, but even today I still feel that it was completely bizarre to insist on that as the canonical way to frame things rather than just considering the ramifications of the abstraction in the code and the experience of using the library based on it.
i recall very early in my career i did exactly this. i took what worked duplicated it—my reasoning being that it was far safer to reuse what has been battle tested and leave refactoring at a later stage
it wasn't received well and senior developer told me that 'good developers know exactly what patterns to use all the time before writing any piece of code and that he will clean up my mess'
long story short his refactoring caused what was otherwise a stable system into a complete mess and it reminded me of Nassim Taleb's book
It's definitely an "it depends" thing. It's easy to overabstract. On the other hand, I've also met junior developers who just didn't know how to use function parameters.
Nobody wants to listen. Nobody. In 90% of the companies there are some so called senior devs that get ecstatic when they create a new abstraction.
Overengineering, abstractions and premature optimisation are the 3 worst plagues of engineering.
At the same time I’m happy they exist because it means we’ll always have a job.
You can do both with microservices!
Please, stop it
But wait! There's more!
For $19.95, you can replace your single single point of failure with multiple single points of failure!
Or for 100$, get a 5x increase on all failure points - maximum vibes, maximum excitement.
Except 9/10 times microservices end up wildly dependent on each other, yielding a distributed monolith. Better to use service oriented architecture and just ship the monolith, you can test easier and skip the extra layers of serialization / deserialization.
I think you missed GP's point
Poe's Law FTW!
I always try to design in a way, that using abstractions/shared logic is optional.
I've worked in too many projects, where every new feature needs to be built on top of existing abstractions, that often lead to severe restrictions if something slightly different is required. I always try to create reusable units/components, that can either be used as intended or replaced by something that behaves slightly different if needed.
Components are not necessarily frontend components, this extends also to backend logic.
I've always told engineers to duplicate until the abstraction is punching them in the face.
You dont know immediately if something that superficially seems the same actually is.
Copy and paste once is fine, twice, not so much.
Often I've seen two totally different things exist in one bit of code, no overlap!
Premature generification is bad, and leads the developer to believe that two things are the same, making it harder to see they are not.
Also, can make it much harder to see that a different abstraction would give a cleaner outcome....
Cheaper is skipping a step.
Code duplication and 'wrong' abstractions both count themselves amongst the other foibles of programming. But they don't directly produce a cost which can be cheap or expensive.
They produce some other high dimensional intermediate value which can then produce highly variable cost dependent on the domain, goals, and scenario.
As ever, it depends.
The depends is quantifiable, but it doesn't fit in a blog post. Think more along the lines of war and peace.
2016 (up to 2018 or so) may have been the peak of such varied activity in the developer ecosystem, including articles like this, whether it was discussion, ideation, OSS variety, language development.
There has been growth since but it's been concentrated into fewer channels and somewhat industrialized.
I once used code duplication to implement a fourth type of dialog that looked somewhat similar to the others, that were sharing a lot of code, because I felt that although it looked much the same as the others, there was some fundamental difference. Took me about a day to implement. When some other engineer saw this, he spend the next three weeks trying to integrate all of them with some shared class. His work was not completely worthless, because he did find some small bug during all his efforts to avoid any possible code duplication. I already had predicted that it would take a lot effort, but I did not object, because I hoped that he would learn something from it and the next time think twice before always trying to avoid code duplication.
It depends if duplication is accidental or real. I.e. if two taxes are using the same formula, it is accidental. If you use the same physic formula on multipla places, it is real duplication.
The sweet spot is really duplicating the wrong abstraction: I see you Claude!
Yes. I’m dealing with a graphql, urql, Next, Prisma stack at the moment. Something that would be a handful of lines of code in a different stack ends up being hundreds in this one.
The Node ecosystem is full of wrong abstractions.
The problem is self-inflicted. You do not need to keep jumping to the next trendy framework.
I inherited this one. My preferred SPA stack these days involves Porsager’s Postgres library, a simple RPC stack with Zod schemas, and Preact.
Even better is an old school MPA with progressive enhancement.
I don't know about you, but I generally don't write code in a vacuum. Other people may have touched it before me. Those other people may have made poor decisions.
Not that I'm immune from choosing the wrong abstraction sometimes. More than once the "other people" was me. We all make mistakes.
Of course, but we should all be doing our best to push back against unnecessary framework churn.
if the majority of the team agrees, sure. but if i am in the minority then i'll appear uncooperative, and that may not be a position i want to be in.
Do you want us to call the previous company and explain what their framework choices did?
my paycheck needs me to.
Nextjs in particular is a dumpster fire, it's a shame that it's the default stack many LLMs slop out.
The generic repository "pattern" is the prime example of this. There might be CRUD operations shared between repositories, but they should not be that base of every repository. I've seen this so many times, because in the beginning the CRUD stuff is what you code over and over again and then suddenly business logic emerges and everything breaks down, but the repository prevails because sunk cost fallacy ...
> Programmer A sees duplication.
This step should also be parameterized by how many times the duplication has occurred. Refactoring preemptively may lead to poor abstractions, but not refactoring after seeing the exact same thing tens of times would also be weird. See also:
https://wiki.c2.com/?DuplicationRefactoringThreshold
https://wiki.c2.com/?ThreeStrikesAndYouRefactor
I would argue that _premature_ abstraction is worse than _some_ duplication of code.
Also I’ve seen the kind of codebase that seems to be LZW packed due to the sheer desire to DRY everything out. Not pleasant thing, by the time you goto 10 layers deep on some “helper” function you forgot why you in there.
While I see the point, I think I more often encounter the opposite. Duplication, but not exactly duplication. Then the "sunk cost fallacy" is not an issue but there is huge maintenance cost and no-one feels like refactoring it. I'd rather refactor bad abstraction than 10x duplication.
but those are exactly the cases where the distinction matters. when you have a situation where you can't duplicate the code exactly, then you really have to look carefully if this is actually the right place for a shared abstraction. i tend to wait and see if i can refactor one or the other to get them to be exact duplicates and only then see if i can fit in a common abstraction. and yes, finding that i later need to make the same change in both places is a sign that a common abstraction is probably the right call.
Duplication is fine, triplication and above is the issue.
Triplication tends to be where it becomes more clear what the correct thing to abstract or de-duplicate is.
It's of course possible to functional-ize segments of logic, but then the question of state mutation must be brought up. How isolated are these changes from other parts of the code / system state. Can this be run in parallel or is it something that must be serial? What potential race conditions exist?
Interface over inheritance is the paradigm I try and stick to. I'd rather maintain orthogonal code than code with overuse of inheritance because of over adherence to DRY.
Depends. If the abstraction is just a level of indirection, then it is usually pretty simple to eliminate - just hit “inline function” in the refactoring tool a few times.
On the other hand it is pretty difficult and error prone to consolidate duplicated code which have drifted apart over time.
If in doubt, chose the approach which is simplest and least risk to revert if you discover in the future you made the wrong choice.
I do agree a bad abstraction can cause huge problems. But it’s usually not the kind of abstractions introduced to eliminate code duplication, but the kind of top-down “architecture astronaut” abstractions, where a model is chosen which does not fit the complexity of the problem.
How I see this:
Refactoring code to reduce the number of lines is _compression_, akin to RLE coding.
Refactoring the code to lift conceptually coherent parts is _abstraction_.
Less compression, more abstraction. Then you're fine.
Twice a coincidence, thrice a pattern.
I've seen the pendulum swing between duplication and abstraction a few times in my career, and I'm currently on team "it's usually not that hard to find a good abstraction up front."
IMO it's easier to inline a bad abstraction than it is to consolidate a bunch of subtly different things that should have been abstracted from the beginning.
But I expect people's opinions on this differ wildly based on their personal experiences. Just my anecdotal take.
If you work backward from the schema these sorts of things tend to evaporate before they can become a problem.
Some of the biggest rabbit holes come from naming conventions not aligning across the business and technology silos. If everyone agrees that Customer has exactly 34 attributes, then it is possible to move to the next step of sharing libraries of types across the team. Getting your POCOs/DTOs 1:1 across the board is when the duplication really starts to melt away.
I once had to work with a system that was refactored and abstracted away heavily to use Redux. It didn't work then, the implementation had way too many abstractions, doing any change meant you had to touch dozens of files. It was insanity. Left me with a bitter taste regarding the redux pattern for ever (probably not the pattern's fault).
Over-abstraction is as much of a problem as under-abstraction. If the abstraction isn’t improving your ability to produce good code, it’s a bad abstraction. I’ve worked with a lot of abstraction patterns in a lot of languages over the 30 years of my career. Any of them can be good or bad. Unthinkingly applying them is always a problem.
Unsurprisingly, that goes for just about any idea in software development. I worked in one code base that heard small functions are best, so every function was less than three lines long. You don’t gain anything by replacing `lst.get(0)` with `get_first_item_in_list(lst)` (in fact, understanding becomes much more difficult), but breaking down functions into the smallest units that make sense independently within the business domain can be very helpful, both for understanding and testing.
100% agreed. It's interesting since I see over-abstraction often abused by "clever" engineers (sometimes quite experienced actually). Sometimes I wonder if they do that to make themselves indispensable on purpose and create their silos in the codebase.
These are not mutually exclusive.
I watched a talk by her about this, and this post is missing half of the equation, which is really important:
Having a wrong abstraction means you end up with a class/function/module with a huge amount of configurations through boolean/enum parameters. It's not even clear that all combinations of configurations is even valid. This situation may be simplified by duplicating, and then eliminating code, thus creating more streamlined code for each use case. This may require fixing similar or cross-cutting bugs in multiple places (eg: JSON serialization is stupid, need to hack a workaround), but keeps the business logic changes simple. Maybe a bit more numerous, but the code is able to raise all the scenarios to consider.
Having no abstraction means you may have to change business logic consistently in multiple places, or you have to fix exactly the same misconception (aka a bug) in multiple cases. e.g. tax rate management in a multi-national context. This is also terrible, because you may fix an important problem in one place and forget other places with the same issue. Now you missed 12 potential bugs by fixing one. This can however allow you to discover a true abstraction. Maybe these 12 places should call just one place?
But for code evolving across a team understanding this tension, a bit of duplication while waiting for confirmation that these pieces of code break together and change together is better than just shoving the same 3 if-statements into a function to avoid "line duplication". Concept duplication is more important.
The discussion around this topic would be nicer if the title had "can be" instead of "is".
Otherwise what is better is better and we don't know what we don't know
The "99 Bottles of OOP" book mentioned at the bottom was an excellent introduction to refactoring. I highly recommend it if you struggle with finding the right data models for the problems you work on.
This is the biggest lesson I got from LMMs. I have a 1 million LOC vibe coded project that I can only imagine would fit in a few hundred thousand lines. But it's still holding up, I expected some kind of development collapse long before this point.
I don't think that's a good lesson.
OP is right that code duplication is far cheaper than the wrong abstraction, but the opposite is also true - the right abstraction is far cheaper than code duplication.
It's made me wonder the same, but most LLM generated codebases haven't been around long enough to judge maintainability. I have noticed issues in some of my more LLM heavy code when I expect a change to be replicated in multiple areas, assuming common code / styling was reused, only to find it wasn't. It's for that reason I can't use LLMs for client codebases without heavy scrutiny of every line generated (for my own hobby projects I'm a lot more lenient)
Well sooner or later I would expect a developer who intimately understands their code base to feel compelled to start refactoring and extracting fitting, meaningful well-leveraged abstractions.
I don't think that will happen anytime soon. Prompts are the code now, and programming languages code is compilation product. Almost nobody optimizes compiled assembly code.
Perhaps "recompilation" - rewrite by replaying all prompts in strict code quality context (linters, complexity & dedup checks) would make better abstractions.
The only problem now is that LLMs are non-deterministic.
> Almost nobody optimizes compiled assembly code.
Compiled assembly code is not an input to the next compilation; source code is an input to the LLM's next inference.
Sure, maybe "prompts are the code," but you must realize that code is also the prompt.
The problem with coming up with a rule that works for everyone is that everyone have a different idea of what makes a good abstraction.
Do you want to iterate using for loop or using .iter().step(2).map()?
I would rather have consistency than a mixed bag of levels of abstractions.
> Do you want to iterate using for loop or using .iter().step(2).map()?
This isn't really a good example, assuming both can be used to represent the same thing.
The problem with the wrong abstraction is when your abstraction doesn't let you represent something. Then, because of you've already invested so heavily into it, you start contorting the problem to fit your abstraction and it becomes a shit show.
> Do you want to iterate using for loop or using .iter().step(2).map()?
I don’t think it matters, specially for sort sized loop scopes
If it's duplication, it's the same abstraction by definition. The fundamental unit of programming is intent, not code.
Code duplication is the wrong abstraction too -- unless it's not really code duplication but code that only happens to be similar for some really "unstable" reason.
I would agree that there are good "de minimis" reasons not to abstract code that isn't ready to be abstracted at all. If the pattern has not settled it shouldn't be forced into an abstraction (beyond those that make sure it is e.g. not vulnerable)
But beyond that, any stable abstraction is better than duplicated code.
Duplication is often a small price to pay for isolation
The smallest amount of simple code that solves the problem wins. Everything else is irrelevant.
Yes, if your programming language/environment is weak.
Code duplication is terrible in the age of LLMs, unless you want to maximize on drift.
I’ve seen code bases that evolved like that. The problem is almost always outside the abstraction that has a pile of conditionals.
Usually, some moron decided to copy paste things a few levels up and then the top half of the system metastasized into two parallel universes of broken garbage.
For instance, one might decide to perform auth later in the flow so unauthorized handlers can run and set a “this requires auth” bit that defaults to false, and the other flow could add a forged auth header before the auth step.
Now, the auth handler needs a “allow forged header” flag and a “already authenticated” flag.
I’ve seen that grow to a half dozen cases until massive production dataloss occurred. A buggy client tried to delete something local to their account without specifying a userid as a parameter (this codebase was garbage!) and deleted the something for all users instead.
I can’t remember how the dataloss was “fixed”, but it definitely wasn’t “all requests go through a simple auth check, and all handlers declare/implement their auth requirements in the same way”.
Getting a design approved to require a user id be specified exactly once for account-level operations was fantasy land for that team. (Most hires with any sort of engineering talent bounced in under a year.)
Anyway the “abstractions are hard so copy paste” approach did provide job security for the lifers on that product. I can’t imagine them holding a job elsewhere, but they were completely immune to layoffs (hostage style).
This is a pretty valid approach if you’re an agent hired to perform industrial sabotage, or if you keep replacing keyboards after you knaw through the corner.
(2016)
Some previous discussions:
2023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35927149
2021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27095503
2020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23739596
2018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17578714
2016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11032296
Just three words: rule of three.
> Code duplication is far cheaper than the wrong abstraction
Very true in some sense, but I continue to encourage DRY-bias because I've literally never seen teams duplicate code responsibly and later dedupe it when it's the right time. 95% of the time this sentiment is quoted to justify shipping quick slop and stable reusable bits are never extracted into a shared lib later.
In my experience if your organization can't commit to doing WET (write everything twice) code then it probably also will fail at doing DRY (don't repeat yourself) code
Maybe this is an area where AI can help identify duplicate code though to show opportunities for de-duping
Oh the self-contradiction here...
Generalizing this in the abstract is a wrong abstraction.
I prefer the go mantra: a little copying is better than a little dependency.
Abstraction is a vague term when used here. Is a shared function an “abstraction”? It’s more like implementation hiding, maybe some data hiding. But you definitely have a dependency on it now.
Acronyms like DRY are for beginners. Once you get good you know when to break the “rules” (and when not to).
No it's not.