Including a strong motivating example might have helped sell this, using an example that could trivially be expressed as a GET is extremely distracting.
Even imagining a QUERY with a large JSON filtering structure, or say an image input as request body, it feels extremely odd to include the request body as part of the cache key. It also implies an unbounded and user-controlled cache key, with the only really meaningful general caching strategy being bitwise compare of the request body (or a hash), which in a hostile scenario implies cache busting would be trivial.
This invokes multiple semantic oddities in one go with obvious difficulties for a very niche use case. If I'm writing a service that needs complex filtering or complex input like an image, any form of caching (e.g. individual data columns of a join, or embeddings keyed by perceptual hashes of a decoded image input) is going to be far away from the HTTP layer and certainly unrelated to the exact bit representation of the request on the wire.
Why even bother trying to capture this in a generic way?
I would be far more inclined to try and capture this caching semantic as a new header for POST. Something like "Vary: request-body" or similar. Perfectly backwards compatible and perfectly ignorable for all but the 0.1% of CDN use cases where the behaviour might turn out useful
> It also implies an unbounded and user-controlled cache key,
The query part of GET's URI is also barely bounded in practice and user-controlled, and is indeed used as part of the cache key (because it's a part of URI), so I am not sure why you raise this objection at all.
I've found some sites that tack on a session ID and if you try to tamper with the URL in any way, it sends you back to "Page 1" really annoys me lol at that point let me skip to any page with your web UI.
The browser can simply store a collision resistant hash (e.g. SHA-256) of the body, if it wants a smaller cache key. I can't really think of any caching related attacks that don't equally apply to a query parameter. Generating a unique 30 character query parameter is just as easy as generating a 30 MB request body, if you want to flood the cache.
Sure you can provide an image as request body, but you could already do it with b64 query parameter. If you try hard enough, you can poorly use any proposed standard.
GET with query parameters already is opaque and makes cache busting trivial.
I'm guessing you never hit this issue then, but it's a real issue. Whether or not it's in the RFC as a hard limit it doesn't matter, no HTTP server will allow unlimited sized URIs.
You simply can't base64 large payloads and you're stuck with workarounds.
You are guessing wrong. Thanks, I know specific implementation will come with their limits. This will equally apply to QUERY body size and caching strategy.
Are we seriously ok with linking the RFC as source while providing a statement that doesn't match? RFC does matter.
> Why even bother trying to capture this in a generic way?
I guess it's about resolving the odd semantics of using POST which is not idempotent and thus allowing easier control flow of caches and retrys.
Your perspective is 100% correct if you think at the application-layer, but with a dedicated method, you can have that behaviour out-of-the-box out of your HTTP infrastructure (whether it's at your hyperscaler's router or your apache/nginx/browser whatever) and stop implementing yourself the post-as-a-query edge case.
If you control the full stack then the functionality described here can be implemented with POST. The only way this comes into play is if some second party client of your service is trying to impose rules on how your backend works. My answer to that is no. I will be defining the contract by which my services operate.
I wonder if HTML forms will add support for QUERY:
<form action="..." method="query">
This would avoid the annoying re-submission warnings you're getting if you refresh a page that was returned by a POST form submission, since QUERY is required to be idempotent.
Depends whether your form submission should expect side effects or not. Most forms submissions have side effects. If the effect is truly idempotent, wouldn't PUT be a better verb? That is also supposed to be idempotent.
Idempotency is an important attribute for correctness. Yep, you can document that POSTing to $ENDPOINT is idempotent, but you can't communicate that to caching layers throughout the network. QUERY, by definition, is idempotent and cacheable.
Where does HN use POST for safe operations? I can't think of any.
Comment submission isn't safe, so QUERY can't be used there. And it doesn't suffer from the problem anyways, since HN returns a 3XX on successful submission, so refreshing doesn't show a warning.
> GET request with a body was heavily considered by the IETF working group, but it was ultimately rejected in favor of creating the new QUERY method. The decision to create a distinct method came down to historical interoperability issues and strict compliance with the core architectural definitions of HTTP.
I've been sending request body along GET method for years now
If this is actually going to replace GET requests w/ query strings in the wild, Im very much hoping for browser bookmarks to support keeping request parameters.
Everytime I think that prediction markets bets can't get worse, they do, all in weird ways. I never expected someone betting over when RFC 10,000 will be published but somehow its fits just about right for prediction markets.
just wow, people seem to be having too much money it seems for them to bet over when RFC's are gonna get released.
This isn't even one of the worst offenders on prediction market or even comparable to it but I am just amazed (in a negative manner, surprised? its just strange) by the depth on what people actually bet on these markets.
People aren't betting real money on this. Manifold uses "mana" points similar to HN karma, which is why you get more for-fun silly bets. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. Disclosure: my mana net worth on Manifold is 75k; I haven't been actively playing.
Interesting thing actually. Seems similar to the trend in South Korea recently where you can online shop to get the thrill of shopping but you aren't actually paying with money.
But I am unsure of the overlap between manifold and polymarket/kalshi. I imagine that some might win in manifold and try to bet on polymarket to win "real" money which ends up being a bit gambling-esque.
But good for manifold for atleast not playing with real money but rather points like this. I would argue that Manifold might be better than polygon/kalshi in terms of net positive outcome of its existence for the world perhaps.
There is an overlap between Manifold and Polymarket/Kalshi. At the very least, Polymarket is more liquid, which creates opportunities for arbitrage and incentives for Manifold users to follow Polymarket. There is something at stake on Manifold itself if you choose to pursue it. There have been ways to convert mana to charitable donations (to your preferred charity), tickets to Manifest (the Manifold conference), and also merch and now prize drawings. Mana is like HN karma in that being at the top gives you bragging rights and suggests technical competence.
I don't hate it. Covers all the bases: 1.1, 2, 3/quic and solves real problems: get query limitations vs body content & post-without-mutation. Yes there are preexisting workarounds, but they're non-obvious.
Wouldn’t just putting an etag on POST requests accomplish the same thing? If I’m understanding it the server has to maintain state to ensure idempotency.
QUERY is GET with a request body. So it must be safe, not just idempotent. Where safe means it has no significant side-effects. Typically servers will not keep any state for QUERY requests.
There is one interesting variant though, which uses state: The client sends a QUERY containing the full query, and the server returns a url usable with GET with which this query can be triggered in the future. Similar to prepared statements in SQL databases.
Using QUERY for GraphQL queries (not mutations) would be a good match. These only read data, but are sometimes bigger than the url length limit.
I still don’t get how idempotency can typically be ensured without state. It very much depends on data model and application design. Even side effects like using a user’s lookup quota need to be handled at a higher layer than HTTP (I think?).
Imagine a forum where comment ids are client-generated UUIDs, and comments are inserted with "ON CONFLICT IGNORE". Submitting the same comment twice would simply be a noop
But what the Query method really targets are things like a graphql query that can be multiple kb for a single query, but only reads data. Sure, it might count against rate limits, trigger logs, etc. But at a conceptual level resubmitting the same query should give the same result (if the data didn't change). And since you are only reading data, resubmitting is safe
Minor side-effects like quotas or request logging are generally ignored when considering the semantics of http methods. I don't see any complications for QUERY that don't already apply to GET. It just allows you to bypass the url length limit by putting the data in the body instead of the url itself.
Interestingly, despite the QUERY request being safe, the RFC says it's subject to preflight requests:
> A QUERY request from user agents implementing Cross-Origin Resource Sharing (CORS) will require a "preflight" request, as QUERY does not belong to the set of CORS-safelisted methods (see [FETCH]).
That paragraph merely describes how existing browsers behave, it doesn't specify how future browsers must behave. After all, a HTTP RFC isn't really the right place to specify browser specific behavior like CORS, that belongs in a W3C/WHATWG specification.
Unlike POST, however, the method is explicitly safe and idempotent, allowing
functions like caching and automatic retries to operate.
Essentially, it's for things that are inherently safe/idempotent already (e.g. search or indeed, anything that you don't mind being retried) but require a lot of data passed in the request.
QUERY has existed in spirit for nearly two decades as WebDAV's SEARCH method https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5323 and the thing that always killed it in practice was intermediaries. Plenty of proxies, WAFs, and load balancers either strip the body from methods they do not recognize or reject the request outright, so the guarantee that sending a body is safe evaporates the moment traffic crosses a middlebox you do not control. Until gateway and CDN support is real rather than just on paper, POST with a header marking the body as part of the cache key stays the pragmatic choice.
Including a strong motivating example might have helped sell this, using an example that could trivially be expressed as a GET is extremely distracting.
Even imagining a QUERY with a large JSON filtering structure, or say an image input as request body, it feels extremely odd to include the request body as part of the cache key. It also implies an unbounded and user-controlled cache key, with the only really meaningful general caching strategy being bitwise compare of the request body (or a hash), which in a hostile scenario implies cache busting would be trivial.
This invokes multiple semantic oddities in one go with obvious difficulties for a very niche use case. If I'm writing a service that needs complex filtering or complex input like an image, any form of caching (e.g. individual data columns of a join, or embeddings keyed by perceptual hashes of a decoded image input) is going to be far away from the HTTP layer and certainly unrelated to the exact bit representation of the request on the wire.
Why even bother trying to capture this in a generic way?
I would be far more inclined to try and capture this caching semantic as a new header for POST. Something like "Vary: request-body" or similar. Perfectly backwards compatible and perfectly ignorable for all but the 0.1% of CDN use cases where the behaviour might turn out useful
> It also implies an unbounded and user-controlled cache key,
The query part of GET's URI is also barely bounded in practice and user-controlled, and is indeed used as part of the cache key (because it's a part of URI), so I am not sure why you raise this objection at all.
> and user-controlled
I've found some sites that tack on a session ID and if you try to tamper with the URL in any way, it sends you back to "Page 1" really annoys me lol at that point let me skip to any page with your web UI.
The browser can simply store a collision resistant hash (e.g. SHA-256) of the body, if it wants a smaller cache key. I can't really think of any caching related attacks that don't equally apply to a query parameter. Generating a unique 30 character query parameter is just as easy as generating a 30 MB request body, if you want to flood the cache.
Sure you can provide an image as request body, but you could already do it with b64 query parameter. If you try hard enough, you can poorly use any proposed standard. GET with query parameters already is opaque and makes cache busting trivial.
Query parameters are length-limited, because HTTP URIs are: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9110/#section-4.1-5. There is no expectation for arbitrarily long HTTP URLs to be functioning.
Your link doesn't say URIs are length-limited
I'm guessing you never hit this issue then, but it's a real issue. Whether or not it's in the RFC as a hard limit it doesn't matter, no HTTP server will allow unlimited sized URIs.
You simply can't base64 large payloads and you're stuck with workarounds.
You are guessing wrong. Thanks, I know specific implementation will come with their limits. This will equally apply to QUERY body size and caching strategy.
Are we seriously ok with linking the RFC as source while providing a statement that doesn't match? RFC does matter.
> It also implies an unbounded and user-controlled cache key.
While the concern is valid, caching is entirely optional at query level, therefore it is totally valid to cache only certain "filters".
I would use a hash of the body content (the query) as a URL parameter
/?hash=123456789
Why? That's pushing more work to do both on yourself and the cache.
> Why even bother trying to capture this in a generic way?
I guess it's about resolving the odd semantics of using POST which is not idempotent and thus allowing easier control flow of caches and retrys.
Your perspective is 100% correct if you think at the application-layer, but with a dedicated method, you can have that behaviour out-of-the-box out of your HTTP infrastructure (whether it's at your hyperscaler's router or your apache/nginx/browser whatever) and stop implementing yourself the post-as-a-query edge case.
If you control the full stack then the functionality described here can be implemented with POST. The only way this comes into play is if some second party client of your service is trying to impose rules on how your backend works. My answer to that is no. I will be defining the contract by which my services operate.
I wonder if HTML forms will add support for QUERY:
This would avoid the annoying re-submission warnings you're getting if you refresh a page that was returned by a POST form submission, since QUERY is required to be idempotent.This is better solved with the post redirect get pattern.
Depends whether your form submission should expect side effects or not. Most forms submissions have side effects. If the effect is truly idempotent, wouldn't PUT be a better verb? That is also supposed to be idempotent.
Forms, HTTP implementations, public API surfaces, and all for what exactly. Introducing a new verb for this feels profoundly misplaced
Idempotency is an important attribute for correctness. Yep, you can document that POSTing to $ENDPOINT is idempotent, but you can't communicate that to caching layers throughout the network. QUERY, by definition, is idempotent and cacheable.
Does anyone know if this approach works at significantly larger scales? Curious about where it breaks down.
At least support - or lack thereof - for a new verb is unambiguous (compared to changing the semantics of GET)
Now HN’s UX can finally be decent.
The team will have to wait for a new header and textarea specs to fix the rest of the jank.
This site is so awful lol. Why don’t they update it?
Where does HN use POST for safe operations? I can't think of any.
Comment submission isn't safe, so QUERY can't be used there. And it doesn't suffer from the problem anyways, since HN returns a 3XX on successful submission, so refreshing doesn't show a warning.
> GET request with a body was heavily considered by the IETF working group, but it was ultimately rejected in favor of creating the new QUERY method. The decision to create a distinct method came down to historical interoperability issues and strict compliance with the core architectural definitions of HTTP.
I've been sending request body along GET method for years now
Apparently some load balancers drop the body.
If this is actually going to replace GET requests w/ query strings in the wild, Im very much hoping for browser bookmarks to support keeping request parameters.
Probably won't. Probably will replace whenever POST is currently used for a query.
Wait, it's already past 10 thousand?
Someone has an ambiguous bet predicting when RFC 10000 will be published, but the numbers went straight from 9998 to 10008. No-one wins!
https://manifold.markets/CollectedOverSpread/when-will-rfc-1...
RFC 10000 will not be published. They're just going to skip past the number.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/EpoQcVt_...
RFC #s are issued sometime before publication, so they can come out out of order. I would expect 9999, 10001, etc. to show up eventually.
Everytime I think that prediction markets bets can't get worse, they do, all in weird ways. I never expected someone betting over when RFC 10,000 will be published but somehow its fits just about right for prediction markets.
just wow, people seem to be having too much money it seems for them to bet over when RFC's are gonna get released.
This isn't even one of the worst offenders on prediction market or even comparable to it but I am just amazed (in a negative manner, surprised? its just strange) by the depth on what people actually bet on these markets.
People aren't betting real money on this. Manifold uses "mana" points similar to HN karma, which is why you get more for-fun silly bets. I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. Disclosure: my mana net worth on Manifold is 75k; I haven't been actively playing.
Ah okay. I didn't know that.
Interesting thing actually. Seems similar to the trend in South Korea recently where you can online shop to get the thrill of shopping but you aren't actually paying with money.
But I am unsure of the overlap between manifold and polymarket/kalshi. I imagine that some might win in manifold and try to bet on polymarket to win "real" money which ends up being a bit gambling-esque.
But good for manifold for atleast not playing with real money but rather points like this. I would argue that Manifold might be better than polygon/kalshi in terms of net positive outcome of its existence for the world perhaps.
Interesting trend. I have found a short article about it: https://www.odditycentral.com/news/south-koreas-fake-online-.... Nothing long-form in English yet, it seems.
There is an overlap between Manifold and Polymarket/Kalshi. At the very least, Polymarket is more liquid, which creates opportunities for arbitrage and incentives for Manifold users to follow Polymarket. There is something at stake on Manifold itself if you choose to pursue it. There have been ways to convert mana to charitable donations (to your preferred charity), tickets to Manifest (the Manifold conference), and also merch and now prize drawings. Mana is like HN karma in that being at the top gives you bragging rights and suggests technical competence.
I don't hate it. Covers all the bases: 1.1, 2, 3/quic and solves real problems: get query limitations vs body content & post-without-mutation. Yes there are preexisting workarounds, but they're non-obvious.
This makes me happy tbh, I was never a fan of creating `POST /search` endpoints when working with robust APIs
It's as bookmarkable as a query with its parameters in the POST data...
Wouldn’t just putting an etag on POST requests accomplish the same thing? If I’m understanding it the server has to maintain state to ensure idempotency.
QUERY is GET with a request body. So it must be safe, not just idempotent. Where safe means it has no significant side-effects. Typically servers will not keep any state for QUERY requests.
There is one interesting variant though, which uses state: The client sends a QUERY containing the full query, and the server returns a url usable with GET with which this query can be triggered in the future. Similar to prepared statements in SQL databases.
Using QUERY for GraphQL queries (not mutations) would be a good match. These only read data, but are sometimes bigger than the url length limit.
Thanks for the explanation!
I still don’t get how idempotency can typically be ensured without state. It very much depends on data model and application design. Even side effects like using a user’s lookup quota need to be handled at a higher layer than HTTP (I think?).
Imagine a forum where comment ids are client-generated UUIDs, and comments are inserted with "ON CONFLICT IGNORE". Submitting the same comment twice would simply be a noop
But what the Query method really targets are things like a graphql query that can be multiple kb for a single query, but only reads data. Sure, it might count against rate limits, trigger logs, etc. But at a conceptual level resubmitting the same query should give the same result (if the data didn't change). And since you are only reading data, resubmitting is safe
Minor side-effects like quotas or request logging are generally ignored when considering the semantics of http methods. I don't see any complications for QUERY that don't already apply to GET. It just allows you to bypass the url length limit by putting the data in the body instead of the url itself.
> I still don’t get how idempotency can typically be ensured without state.
Well, how is "GET /index.html HTTP/1.1" made idempotent in practice without (additional) state?
Interestingly, despite the QUERY request being safe, the RFC says it's subject to preflight requests:
> A QUERY request from user agents implementing Cross-Origin Resource Sharing (CORS) will require a "preflight" request, as QUERY does not belong to the set of CORS-safelisted methods (see [FETCH]).
That paragraph merely describes how existing browsers behave, it doesn't specify how future browsers must behave. After all, a HTTP RFC isn't really the right place to specify browser specific behavior like CORS, that belongs in a W3C/WHATWG specification.
Ideally, libraries like FastAPI, etc. could be configured to translate QUERYs to GETs, until you can rewrite your code to automatically support both.
query strings always had size limit, seems this new type will solve it which will be really good.
QUERY has existed in spirit for nearly two decades as WebDAV's SEARCH method https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5323 and the thing that always killed it in practice was intermediaries. Plenty of proxies, WAFs, and load balancers either strip the body from methods they do not recognize or reject the request outright, so the guarantee that sending a body is safe evaporates the moment traffic crosses a middlebox you do not control. Until gateway and CDN support is real rather than just on paper, POST with a header marking the body as part of the cache key stays the pragmatic choice.