China may be subsidizing this for now in a way that US companies can't or won't - but if they keep building power infrastructure and the US doesn't, then it will no longer require subsidy from them. It will simply be absolutely cheaper (including profit margin) to serve tokens in China.
China is building for the future, while Western Democracies are afraid of the future, and of their own shadow.
I believe you are right. These models are at worst a 6 month lag to the costly frontier models, but the ability to scale energy production is years ahead of where the US is. That advantage is often under appreciated
Their cost of energy is what matters vs the US as much as speed buildout.
"Build American AI, a nonprofit linked to a super PAC bankrolled by executives at OpenAI and Andreessen Horowitz, is funding a campaign to spread pro-AI messaging and stoke fears about China."
In reality Xi has warned of AI bubbles. If China was really pushing it they'd be equal or ahead because so many researchers are Chinese anyway. Instead, China is building real stuff instead of focusing on hot air like a16z ("crypto", "AI", you name it). Maybe China should sponsor that PAC to accelerate the demise of the West.
I have not fully seen or appreciated most of the negativity. Obviously there are exceptions to that but in my eyes it has largely exposed how vulnerable the west is due to poor infrastructure constructs and a lack of building out generation and transmission.
It’s wild. Regardless of Deepseek direct pricing, on Openrouter itself, the pricing for Pro is comparable to Haiku. Flash is even cheaper. You get Opus 4.5 and better than Sonnet 4.6 performance.
Amusing that just when the big three AI providers from US raise prices significantly, even for the mini models, you’ve got a Chinese model slashing their already-cheap offer by 75%. Not to mention you can run this model on your own hardware, although admittedly even the flash stretches the meaning of local for individual people.
My guess is that the popular US providers get a lot more traffic and are supply-limited. No point in lowering prices unless you can serve the traffic that will result.
Use their API directly, this is an openrouter issue. I ran something like 5 billion tokens through them directly recently without any bumps in the road.
I'm quite sure (and you could find it somewhere of course) that the Chinese models would've been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views. Even so, at what point is even the quality risk (assuming your use case won't be affected by those adjustments) and any potential privacy concerns outweighed by the fact that it's literally an order of magnitude (and sometimes multiple, for output tokens etc!) cheaper than the US frontier models?
At this point I don’t see the difference between the U.S. or China what it comes to privacy concerns anymore. US might be even worse. Run locally if you want privacy. At least Chinese make it possible.
If you want the masses to run locally, try squeezing the memory requirements down even more. 8GB of system RAM is not uncommon IRL, I suspect.
Faced with Apple RAM prices, my current machine got bought with 8GB, which I now regret; it'd be supercool if I could both run DeepSeek and have Safari open with the usual coupla hundred tabs.
That’s where this is going. I think we’re one year away from being able to use Opus 4.6 levels of coding performance on a 3k laptop. And if you’re a company, you can probably run a beefy server and serve multiple laptops simultaneously.
Right, but they're ones that are more concordant with the leanings and world views of the people and businesses that frequent this forum.
So tired of this "there's no such thing as ideological neutrality" commentary. We get it. Move on. Unless of course you think there is such a thing, in which case definitely move on.
Which particular world views and leanings? Mine are likely quite different than yours. How does this site feel about "Woke AI" for instance? Remember, no neutrality please.
Western education and popular culture reinforces a strong sense of ideological exceptionalism, so I frankly don't see the problem with having it spelled out now and then. The "we" that "gets it" is smaller than you think, as least as far as USA is concerned.
I suspect for many companies, the sunk cost of tokens relative to the output gain is low. The productivity gain we get from AI is such that using the latest Opus or GPT far outweighs the cost savings using a non frontier Chinese model.
Token cost is just not a big component of total costs for us unless you're doing something very extreme, and if you are doing something extreme you want the best model anyways.
Did anybody compared these directly using exactly same prompts and harness? I assume V4 Pro could be real frontier model, and if it's true, it'd be better to use it in automation or routine steps instead of simple models (e.g. haiku or even sonnet if V4pro is better)
For the average Western citizen it is more privacy invasive to use Western models. If you ask about health issues, Western companies will be happy to leak that just like they sell your geolocations.
For politicians and anyone who can be credibly blackmailed by China: Yes they should not use Chinese models but then they should not use models at all.
For z.ai the political bias by default is Western (if you connect from the West). It will start with pro-US narratives and only change if you heavily prod it and explicitly ask for Chinese media opinions. Yes, it censors Tiananmen but that is just a gimmick. Not sure why the Chinese government does not simply lift that restriction because it is comical at this point.
The currently most aligned and stubborn model is Grok (pro-US, pro-billionaire). The rest can always be persuaded with the appropriate prompts.
Is this being done ahead of the big IPOs coming this year? Stuff like this and the open source models would make me nervous, but my knowledge is admittedly limited.
Turing was half right. Pass his test and you haven't proven a machine can think — you've proven it can make us think it does. That's a far more dangerous thing to have built.
While Anthropic, OpenAI and Google continue to charge an expensive amount of $$$ for in/output per million tokens and Microsoft complaining that AI costs more than hiring humans [0] and changes their pricing, it appears that Jevons paradox applies only to Deepseek.
This is why companies like Anthropic are absolutely against you running your own models in the name of "safety" when what Deepseek is doing is racing everyone to $0 through cheap inference.
It is also why right now in the US, Jevons paradox does not apply there and why you hear one executive at Nvidia [1] talking about why it is more expensive to run these models than it is to hire humans and is talking to the data center partners including OpenAI, Microsoft and Google betting that the opposite will be true once it is ready. That could take years.
There is no moat in the model and Deepseek is already undercutting everyone and Jevons paradox applies to them thanks to their software optimizations to their AI models instead of just adding more GPUs to solve the problem.
They started with a well-timed sale right at the release of V4, when Anthropic was publically forced to admit they've been playing with the models in the background wasting peoples money, and Copilot pricing scheme changed pricing out top Opus models into higher tiers. DS sale got expanded to whole of May, as I'm sure they saw a trove of people feeding their tasks to them in parallel with their bad experience with Anthropic. This dynamic reaction to overall situation is refreshing to see.
I have no idea why people celebrate this. It is replacing one feudal lord by another.
We don't need AI at all. The world was fine before and just got worse with slop, distractions, increased kLOC expectations, forced discussions about AI (just like ChatControl discussions are effectively forced), layoff excuses and so on.
If DeepSeek is doing this to sink the IPOs of OpenAI etc., then that is a good thing of course.
"(3) The deepseek-v4-pro model API pricing will be officially adjusted to 1/4 of the original price after the 75% discount promotion ends on 2026/05/31 15:59 UTC."
Chinese models will always be cheap because you are also paying for it by handing over whatever you are working on (or saying) to the party, and China has no short history of copying everything it can get it's hands on from the west.
China has no separation between business and state. So deep seek servers are defacto party servers.
Running it local is fine, but that's free anyway.
Edit: Like clockwork the shills flow in to hide this info. I'm sure the whataboutism will follow soon. Nothing I said is false, so the best they can do is hide/redirect.
The biggest problem we face in the west is thinking our institutions are somehow different. Be critical of the product all you want, but don't pretend the exact same thing isn't happening here.
Worst thing China can do is steal your IP if you’re not a Chinese national and have no ties to China. Worst thing US can do is use your chat history in court against you. Still safer to use Chinese servers if local is not an option for the task.
You are likely being downvoted for pretending like this is a China specific problem. The only difference in the US is the government and businesses not admitting to it.
Plus I think its funny you complain about China stealing things when all the big AI models are based on massive troves of stolen information and IP.
Reminds me of this parking ramp I used to use occasionally. I'd park for hours and when leaving the guy in the booth would tell me the charge and it would always be ridiculously low, like $0.50 or $1.00. Definitely not enough to pay for the guy to sit in the booth.
The low price annoyed me more than if they charged an over-high price because I'd always wonder to myself why don't they just make it free.
Are you sure that is the extent of their business? Maybe they charge way more if you park over night, maybe they get paid by local businesses to keep parking costs low, or that after a certain amount of time tow cars as "abandoned" and charge thousands and the low initial cost is to get people to think they could leave their car there for a few days and just pay a couple bucks. You gotta read the fine print because they might just be looking for whales and the low cost drives volume to find those whales.
China may be subsidizing this for now in a way that US companies can't or won't - but if they keep building power infrastructure and the US doesn't, then it will no longer require subsidy from them. It will simply be absolutely cheaper (including profit margin) to serve tokens in China.
China is building for the future, while Western Democracies are afraid of the future, and of their own shadow.
I believe you are right. These models are at worst a 6 month lag to the costly frontier models, but the ability to scale energy production is years ahead of where the US is. That advantage is often under appreciated
Their cost of energy is what matters vs the US as much as speed buildout.
That is the talking point of OpenAI and a16z's super PAC:
https://www.wired.com/story/super-pac-backed-by-openai-and-p...
"Build American AI, a nonprofit linked to a super PAC bankrolled by executives at OpenAI and Andreessen Horowitz, is funding a campaign to spread pro-AI messaging and stoke fears about China."
In reality Xi has warned of AI bubbles. If China was really pushing it they'd be equal or ahead because so many researchers are Chinese anyway. Instead, China is building real stuff instead of focusing on hot air like a16z ("crypto", "AI", you name it). Maybe China should sponsor that PAC to accelerate the demise of the West.
What the fuck are you talking about - have you seen what data centres are doing in the West? Do you want more of that?
I have not fully seen or appreciated most of the negativity. Obviously there are exceptions to that but in my eyes it has largely exposed how vulnerable the west is due to poor infrastructure constructs and a lack of building out generation and transmission.
Yes, I want cheap clean power.
Yes, and yes!
Nope.
We have exported production to China in many things, we forget that we had dark satanic mills of our own.
Kudos to the DeepSeek folks for making tokens not only affordable but also open source. This is a race to the bottom for token costs in a good way.
It’s wild. Regardless of Deepseek direct pricing, on Openrouter itself, the pricing for Pro is comparable to Haiku. Flash is even cheaper. You get Opus 4.5 and better than Sonnet 4.6 performance.
It can't see images so it doesn't do everything Sonnet will do. Still a good deal though.
Could you please clarify exactly what you mean?
Alternative article:
https://finance.yahoo.com/sectors/technology/articles/china3...
Amusing that just when the big three AI providers from US raise prices significantly, even for the mini models, you’ve got a Chinese model slashing their already-cheap offer by 75%. Not to mention you can run this model on your own hardware, although admittedly even the flash stretches the meaning of local for individual people.
My guess is that the popular US providers get a lot more traffic and are supply-limited. No point in lowering prices unless you can serve the traffic that will result.
Great headline cost reduction, but has anyone here actually used the API in production?
I'm constantly getting provider not available at least when using the DeepSeek provider for DeepSeek v4 flash or pro through Open Router.
It seems like there isn't enough capacity to actually serve production traffic
I'm using the official API and I've had no issues.
Use their API directly, this is an openrouter issue. I ran something like 5 billion tokens through them directly recently without any bumps in the road.
I'm quite sure (and you could find it somewhere of course) that the Chinese models would've been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views. Even so, at what point is even the quality risk (assuming your use case won't be affected by those adjustments) and any potential privacy concerns outweighed by the fact that it's literally an order of magnitude (and sometimes multiple, for output tokens etc!) cheaper than the US frontier models?
At this point I don’t see the difference between the U.S. or China what it comes to privacy concerns anymore. US might be even worse. Run locally if you want privacy. At least Chinese make it possible.
If you want the masses to run locally, try squeezing the memory requirements down even more. 8GB of system RAM is not uncommon IRL, I suspect.
Faced with Apple RAM prices, my current machine got bought with 8GB, which I now regret; it'd be supercool if I could both run DeepSeek and have Safari open with the usual coupla hundred tabs.
That’s where this is going. I think we’re one year away from being able to use Opus 4.6 levels of coding performance on a 3k laptop. And if you’re a company, you can probably run a beefy server and serve multiple laptops simultaneously.
I'm quite sure that the American models have been fine-tuned for certain leanings and world views
Right, but they're ones that are more concordant with the leanings and world views of the people and businesses that frequent this forum.
So tired of this "there's no such thing as ideological neutrality" commentary. We get it. Move on. Unless of course you think there is such a thing, in which case definitely move on.
Which particular world views and leanings? Mine are likely quite different than yours. How does this site feel about "Woke AI" for instance? Remember, no neutrality please.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/07/prev...
Western education and popular culture reinforces a strong sense of ideological exceptionalism, so I frankly don't see the problem with having it spelled out now and then. The "we" that "gets it" is smaller than you think, as least as far as USA is concerned.
I suspect for many companies, the sunk cost of tokens relative to the output gain is low. The productivity gain we get from AI is such that using the latest Opus or GPT far outweighs the cost savings using a non frontier Chinese model.
Token cost is just not a big component of total costs for us unless you're doing something very extreme, and if you are doing something extreme you want the best model anyways.
Did anybody compared these directly using exactly same prompts and harness? I assume V4 Pro could be real frontier model, and if it's true, it'd be better to use it in automation or routine steps instead of simple models (e.g. haiku or even sonnet if V4pro is better)
For the average Western citizen it is more privacy invasive to use Western models. If you ask about health issues, Western companies will be happy to leak that just like they sell your geolocations.
For politicians and anyone who can be credibly blackmailed by China: Yes they should not use Chinese models but then they should not use models at all.
For z.ai the political bias by default is Western (if you connect from the West). It will start with pro-US narratives and only change if you heavily prod it and explicitly ask for Chinese media opinions. Yes, it censors Tiananmen but that is just a gimmick. Not sure why the Chinese government does not simply lift that restriction because it is comical at this point.
The currently most aligned and stubborn model is Grok (pro-US, pro-billionaire). The rest can always be persuaded with the appropriate prompts.
None of the deepseek models are multimodal. How are you guys able to use it in daily work without image input?
For example it's just so natural to share screenshots in a chat.
I just never do that.
Right before OpenAI's IPO. The boldness.
Is this being done ahead of the big IPOs coming this year? Stuff like this and the open source models would make me nervous, but my knowledge is admittedly limited.
One thing that I find annoying is that it gives results like a teleprinter and so overall takes longer
Turing was half right. Pass his test and you haven't proven a machine can think — you've proven it can make us think it does. That's a far more dangerous thing to have built.
At least we're not thinking that it is God. Is there a name for that test?
That was always what the turning test was, even according to turing ...
While Anthropic, OpenAI and Google continue to charge an expensive amount of $$$ for in/output per million tokens and Microsoft complaining that AI costs more than hiring humans [0] and changes their pricing, it appears that Jevons paradox applies only to Deepseek.
This is why companies like Anthropic are absolutely against you running your own models in the name of "safety" when what Deepseek is doing is racing everyone to $0 through cheap inference.
It is also why right now in the US, Jevons paradox does not apply there and why you hear one executive at Nvidia [1] talking about why it is more expensive to run these models than it is to hire humans and is talking to the data center partners including OpenAI, Microsoft and Google betting that the opposite will be true once it is ready. That could take years.
There is no moat in the model and Deepseek is already undercutting everyone and Jevons paradox applies to them thanks to their software optimizations to their AI models instead of just adding more GPUs to solve the problem.
Good.
[0] https://fortune.com/2026/05/22/microsoft-ai-cost-problem-tok...
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47941609
They started with a well-timed sale right at the release of V4, when Anthropic was publically forced to admit they've been playing with the models in the background wasting peoples money, and Copilot pricing scheme changed pricing out top Opus models into higher tiers. DS sale got expanded to whole of May, as I'm sure they saw a trove of people feeding their tasks to them in parallel with their bad experience with Anthropic. This dynamic reaction to overall situation is refreshing to see.
>There is no moat in the model.
What's the "moat" in giving models away for free? Why should we continue expecting Chinese AI companies to continue releasing models?
The article is about the pricing of the flagship non-free DeepSeek model.
I have no idea why people celebrate this. It is replacing one feudal lord by another.
We don't need AI at all. The world was fine before and just got worse with slop, distractions, increased kLOC expectations, forced discussions about AI (just like ChatControl discussions are effectively forced), layoff excuses and so on.
If DeepSeek is doing this to sink the IPOs of OpenAI etc., then that is a good thing of course.
Well it's not replacing one with the other. It's creating competition between them, which in so doing weakens each one.
How is it a 'feudal lord'? These are local models.
An API is a local model?
https://api-docs.deepseek.com/quick_start/pricing
"(3) The deepseek-v4-pro model API pricing will be officially adjusted to 1/4 of the original price after the 75% discount promotion ends on 2026/05/31 15:59 UTC."
Chinese models will always be cheap because you are also paying for it by handing over whatever you are working on (or saying) to the party, and China has no short history of copying everything it can get it's hands on from the west.
China has no separation between business and state. So deep seek servers are defacto party servers.
Running it local is fine, but that's free anyway.
Edit: Like clockwork the shills flow in to hide this info. I'm sure the whataboutism will follow soon. Nothing I said is false, so the best they can do is hide/redirect.
The biggest problem we face in the west is thinking our institutions are somehow different. Be critical of the product all you want, but don't pretend the exact same thing isn't happening here.
Worst thing China can do is steal your IP if you’re not a Chinese national and have no ties to China. Worst thing US can do is use your chat history in court against you. Still safer to use Chinese servers if local is not an option for the task.
You are likely being downvoted for pretending like this is a China specific problem. The only difference in the US is the government and businesses not admitting to it.
Plus I think its funny you complain about China stealing things when all the big AI models are based on massive troves of stolen information and IP.
All I see is healthy competition
Quick reminder that US data protection doesn't apply to non US customers. Companies are not even allowed to disclose their spying.
Reminds me of this parking ramp I used to use occasionally. I'd park for hours and when leaving the guy in the booth would tell me the charge and it would always be ridiculously low, like $0.50 or $1.00. Definitely not enough to pay for the guy to sit in the booth.
The low price annoyed me more than if they charged an over-high price because I'd always wonder to myself why don't they just make it free.
Are you sure that is the extent of their business? Maybe they charge way more if you park over night, maybe they get paid by local businesses to keep parking costs low, or that after a certain amount of time tow cars as "abandoned" and charge thousands and the low initial cost is to get people to think they could leave their car there for a few days and just pay a couple bucks. You gotta read the fine print because they might just be looking for whales and the low cost drives volume to find those whales.
Perhaps keeping the booth guy employed was the real point.
IIUC, most parking lots are real estate plays -- the real money is in flipping the land; money made from parking tolls is gravy.
Land value tax fixes this