My grandfather emigrated from Vilnius (was polish at the time) to the USA as a teenager and managed to find a church that did their mass in Latin, and still does to this day. I assume he understood it but I'm not sure - he was well-educated and spoke a few languages.
Giving the mass in Latin wasn't (generally) done because people understood Latin, but because of a traditionalist sense. The Second Vatican Council stated (among other things) that the mass could be done in other languages apart from Latin, and that it was a good thing to use local languages, so people could understand it better.
After that Council some excisions appeared, like the Society of Saint Pius X, that reclaimed the old ways of giving mass, in Latin, (and, IIRC, with the deacon giving his back to the people, not looking at them), and said there was "a moral and theological crisis in the Catholic Church".
Or people like the Palmarian Catholic Church in Spain, saying they have the authentic Pope, and the one in Rome is an Antipope. They were a scam for pulling money from their believers, and their "Pope" kept spending money on booze and expensive cars. They still exist.
Historically Latin was also a common international language. Educated people could understand Latin across much of Europe. Not so great for the majority of people, of course. The article seems to indicate that in some places it was pretty widely understood.
I think some rites of the church did use other languages such as Syriac.
I knew about SSPX but not the Palmarians. They seem to be even odder and a cult. Interesting in the same way I find conspiracy theories interesting, so thanks.
Not just Europe. Well into relatively modern history educated individuals in America were expected to have fluency in Latin and frequently Greek as well. This [1] Harvard admission exam from 1869 immediately comes to mind. Applicants were expected to be able to pass that test, and the overwhelming majority did.
In Spain both are still taught in the standard high-school curriculum.
Not everyone takes those classes of course, but Latin is one of the core optatives in the humanities path, and many students pick it. It's not really taught as a foreign language though, it is used to teach fundamental concepts in linguistic analysis and translation, and it can be a legitimately valuable foundation to have a strong general literacy across romance languages.
I'm not sure how common it is elsewhere, but Roman law is also one of the core set of courses in the first years of studying law at university.
I remember that a good friend of mine somehow avoided studying maths for the last four years of high-school by choosing all the alternatives, which included both Latin and ancient Greek. He was and still is a fantastic programmer despite hating maths though, obsessed with Linux distros from early teens.
The church Latin used in “the Latin Mass” is relatively simple and pretty easy to learn; and it’s very rare to find one that does the readings and homily in Latin; most of those are in English (or the local language) even at an FSSP parish.
Of course if it’s “really” done in the ancient way then it’s done at such a high speed that you need five or six Jesuits and advanced recording equipment to even figure out what is being said. ;)
I recall some of the Orthodox denominations still do mass in Latin. I visited an Antiochian Orthodox Church for a class where this was the case. I think (it has been a long while) the key phrase you'd look for is 'Western Rite'.
Some Eastern Orthodox use (for all dialogue, they do celebrate mass) a language that's now only referred to as Church Slavonic. [1] Though going down this tangent I can't help but think of that Emo Phillips skit on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78
Latin (and other "old" languages) can still be found in various ways and places, though that starts to get deep into it, as the "New Catholic Mass" can be said in any language, one of which is Latin.
Latin was the standard language of the Roman-Catholic Mass until the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s. The current form of the Mass in national languages was formalized in 1970.
I remember reading 17th century letters from Dutch diplomats. They used French to write back home- except when they talked about money. Such matters required a higher form of communication.
This phenomenon is well explained in ``God's Playground: A History of Poland'' by Norman Davies, which I am currently reading/listening to. But historically Latin was the lingua franca that time, and Polish people who wrote were always educated. So no other possibility back day I'd say...
What is strange, that medical matters are mostly translated to Polish, while when I watch medical shows on TV I see that US still tends to use Latin there.
Similar thing for species names, not sure where I've seen it.
A side note from Polanmd: My professor of Solids State Physics was pretty fluent in both Latin and Greek, which I find quite interesting (it was about ~20 years ago, he was in his 60-70s).
There is a specific medial jargon developed form latin designed to be unambiguous and often intentionally different from lay words is one thing you're hearing in American tv, the other is that many technical words are English words but of latin origin.
One nice thing is that the Polish church records are in Latin (with Latinized names), so I've been able to find and read birth/baptismal records for my wife's ancestors from the 1800s.
I'm Polish and my father (boomer generation) attended a boys-only high school, where Latin was part of the mandatory curriculum.
He managed to use it once when we were living in Kuwait and he had to arrange for my sister to get baptized - he knew that there were two missionaries visiting the local Cathedral - one Spanish and the other Polish but as he didn't know who was who, he started the conversation in Latin and of course got an appropriate response.
He didn't know the nationality of the man in front of him as he's never seen the faces of the two before. It was the mid 90s, so it's not like he could easily look that up.
Also he figured it would be rude.
IIRC the wider context is that my dad, not knowing where the priests were at that moment and having no one to ask in the vicinity, went to a confessional as he saw someone there.
As a side note I do think Latin language should be become the official language of the EU. It's dead so
- its a compromise for all member staes
- you can change as you like
- it was used millennials as a law language so it fits
I think that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals. It puts different groups on a more equal footing.
Far more people understand it than things like Esperanto. Quite a lot of people know it a bit. I did it at school. My kids learned some (their choice to do it up to GCSE level).
That said, in practice, English is the international language. It is what is most likely to be used at an international conference in most fields, or when people with two different native languages speak.
English is the international language now. About a century ago, the lingua franca of the technological world was German. Half of my father's university text books were in German, pretty much all of mine were in English. Things can (and do) change.
I even have some medical diagnosis from Poland of a family member in Latin from the early 1990s. Weird elitist way of saying "you have cancer and our healthcare is one big corrupted ruin so you will suffer". The doctor was probably smoking a cigarette while typing it.
My grandfather emigrated from Vilnius (was polish at the time) to the USA as a teenager and managed to find a church that did their mass in Latin, and still does to this day. I assume he understood it but I'm not sure - he was well-educated and spoke a few languages.
Giving the mass in Latin wasn't (generally) done because people understood Latin, but because of a traditionalist sense. The Second Vatican Council stated (among other things) that the mass could be done in other languages apart from Latin, and that it was a good thing to use local languages, so people could understand it better.
After that Council some excisions appeared, like the Society of Saint Pius X, that reclaimed the old ways of giving mass, in Latin, (and, IIRC, with the deacon giving his back to the people, not looking at them), and said there was "a moral and theological crisis in the Catholic Church".
Or people like the Palmarian Catholic Church in Spain, saying they have the authentic Pope, and the one in Rome is an Antipope. They were a scam for pulling money from their believers, and their "Pope" kept spending money on booze and expensive cars. They still exist.
Historically Latin was also a common international language. Educated people could understand Latin across much of Europe. Not so great for the majority of people, of course. The article seems to indicate that in some places it was pretty widely understood.
I think some rites of the church did use other languages such as Syriac.
I knew about SSPX but not the Palmarians. They seem to be even odder and a cult. Interesting in the same way I find conspiracy theories interesting, so thanks.
Indeed, it was also the lingua franca (pun intended) of early science for quite a long time.
Not just Europe. Well into relatively modern history educated individuals in America were expected to have fluency in Latin and frequently Greek as well. This [1] Harvard admission exam from 1869 immediately comes to mind. Applicants were expected to be able to pass that test, and the overwhelming majority did.
[1] - https://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/education/harvard...
The classical school movement in America is growing quite rapidly, and so maybe we start to see it again?
My kids at least are all learning Latin, and later, Greek.
In Spain both are still taught in the standard high-school curriculum.
Not everyone takes those classes of course, but Latin is one of the core optatives in the humanities path, and many students pick it. It's not really taught as a foreign language though, it is used to teach fundamental concepts in linguistic analysis and translation, and it can be a legitimately valuable foundation to have a strong general literacy across romance languages.
I'm not sure how common it is elsewhere, but Roman law is also one of the core set of courses in the first years of studying law at university.
I remember that a good friend of mine somehow avoided studying maths for the last four years of high-school by choosing all the alternatives, which included both Latin and ancient Greek. He was and still is a fantastic programmer despite hating maths though, obsessed with Linux distros from early teens.
Classical greek and modern greek are quite different
Audentes fortuna iuvat!
I was thinking of rather earlier in history, but you are right.
My grandfather was studied Latin (and Greek) in school in Sri Lanka.
You can't deny it, mass is much more stylish in Latin ;)
The church Latin used in “the Latin Mass” is relatively simple and pretty easy to learn; and it’s very rare to find one that does the readings and homily in Latin; most of those are in English (or the local language) even at an FSSP parish.
Of course if it’s “really” done in the ancient way then it’s done at such a high speed that you need five or six Jesuits and advanced recording equipment to even figure out what is being said. ;)
I recall some of the Orthodox denominations still do mass in Latin. I visited an Antiochian Orthodox Church for a class where this was the case. I think (it has been a long while) the key phrase you'd look for is 'Western Rite'.
Some Eastern Orthodox use (for all dialogue, they do celebrate mass) a language that's now only referred to as Church Slavonic. [1] Though going down this tangent I can't help but think of that Emo Phillips skit on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic
Latin (and other "old" languages) can still be found in various ways and places, though that starts to get deep into it, as the "New Catholic Mass" can be said in any language, one of which is Latin.
Latin was the standard language of the Roman-Catholic Mass until the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s. The current form of the Mass in national languages was formalized in 1970.
I remember reading 17th century letters from Dutch diplomats. They used French to write back home- except when they talked about money. Such matters required a higher form of communication.
Lingua Franca, like literally. French used to be the language of diplomacy.
This phenomenon is well explained in ``God's Playground: A History of Poland'' by Norman Davies, which I am currently reading/listening to. But historically Latin was the lingua franca that time, and Polish people who wrote were always educated. So no other possibility back day I'd say...
What is strange, that medical matters are mostly translated to Polish, while when I watch medical shows on TV I see that US still tends to use Latin there.
Similar thing for species names, not sure where I've seen it.
A side note from Polanmd: My professor of Solids State Physics was pretty fluent in both Latin and Greek, which I find quite interesting (it was about ~20 years ago, he was in his 60-70s).
My sister had her diagnosis described in Latin in the early 90s by CZMP hospital in Łódź
There is a specific medial jargon developed form latin designed to be unambiguous and often intentionally different from lay words is one thing you're hearing in American tv, the other is that many technical words are English words but of latin origin.
One nice thing is that the Polish church records are in Latin (with Latinized names), so I've been able to find and read birth/baptismal records for my wife's ancestors from the 1800s.
I'm Polish and my father (boomer generation) attended a boys-only high school, where Latin was part of the mandatory curriculum.
He managed to use it once when we were living in Kuwait and he had to arrange for my sister to get baptized - he knew that there were two missionaries visiting the local Cathedral - one Spanish and the other Polish but as he didn't know who was who, he started the conversation in Latin and of course got an appropriate response.
I’m confused. Why not start the conversation in Polish?
He didn't know the nationality of the man in front of him as he's never seen the faces of the two before. It was the mid 90s, so it's not like he could easily look that up.
Also he figured it would be rude.
IIRC the wider context is that my dad, not knowing where the priests were at that moment and having no one to ask in the vicinity, went to a confessional as he saw someone there.
But why wouldn't he start the conversation in Polish? If the priest responds, he is Polish. If he doesn't, he is Spanish.
As a side note I do think Latin language should be become the official language of the EU. It's dead so - its a compromise for all member staes - you can change as you like - it was used millennials as a law language so it fits
I think that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals. It puts different groups on a more equal footing.
Far more people understand it than things like Esperanto. Quite a lot of people know it a bit. I did it at school. My kids learned some (their choice to do it up to GCSE level).
That said, in practice, English is the international language. It is what is most likely to be used at an international conference in most fields, or when people with two different native languages speak.
English is the international language now. About a century ago, the lingua franca of the technological world was German. Half of my father's university text books were in German, pretty much all of mine were in English. Things can (and do) change.
English is a living language so it's a bad choice (at least from my criteria ;) )
Yes, agreed. That was intended to be a BTW and Latin is probably the best choice on your criteria.
Or Esperanto. But Spanish or Italian would also be great as they sound so nice.
Esperanto being created by L.L. Zamenhof ... a Polish Ashkenazi Jew. Full circle!
I even have some medical diagnosis from Poland of a family member in Latin from the early 1990s. Weird elitist way of saying "you have cancer and our healthcare is one big corrupted ruin so you will suffer". The doctor was probably smoking a cigarette while typing it.