There are two simultaneous problems that I've come to understand with datacenters and the people that live in their proximity:
1. Somehow the public is always left holding the bag for increased transmission costs despite the cause of the increase being a single (or short list) of outliers.
2. The residential public, as is tradition, is always asked to scale down for industrial demand.
How can we imagine expanding a system that results in both of these outcomes? That, to me, seems to be the thing to fix first.
The idea that capitalism off loads the cost of externalities onto the unwitting public is nothing new. This is just the most recent and obvious version. Air anbd water pollution are the old ones. They make the pollution and the public pays for it with superfund sites or increased health care costs.
The solution is having the consumer pay for the externalities when they use the product. But this would make AI so much more expensive. When you use AI you are exploiting other people. Just keep that in mind.
This is an interesting problem. I have been wanting to dig deeper on some of the complaints around water and power. This one is unique though.
Doesn’t read much like a problem so much with data center growth as it does with Liberty mismanaging their business/assets. For almost 20 years liberty acted as nothing more than a transmission operator with very weak agreements on power generation. They should have been figuring out this problem long ago.
I would think that a lot of rural electrical cooperatives are "nothing more than a transmission operator" i.e. they own/manage/maintain the lines from their providers out to their customers, but don't have the capital or expertise to run generating plants.
“nothing more than a transmission operator with very weak agreements on power generation” don’t take the quote out of context now.
I would bet most coops have fairly concrete contracts on generation. This one is unique because they were using usage from a grid they have no standing in. Weak agreement, folks should have been figuring it out 20 years ago.
I didn’t realize the scale of data centers in northern Nevada. Residential customers will mostly pay 70% for the transmission line costs. 12 data centers by 2033 with 5,900 MW of power.
“NV Energy is building Greenlink West, a 525-kV, $4.2 billion transmission line from Las Vegas to Yerington, expected online in May 2027. Schwarzrock said Liberty would be “first in the waiting line” when Greenlink opens, giving it access to a wider pool of energy providers. But that timeline matches the contract deadline exactly, leaving almost no margin for error. About 70% of the project’s costs will be borne by Southern Nevada customers.
But this is nothing new, at least according to NV Energy.”
If AI is the cause of these data centers, why is it not the bogey man? This sounds like you personally want to use AI with out acknowledging the externalities and the burden your use of AI puts on your fellow citizens.
This is like the movie Chinatown, where people were fighting over water, but now it's all about electricity.
It sounds like Lake Tahoe residents kicked the can down the road and didn't care about electricity for so long that now they have to pay the piper. I think it's entire just that they have to bear the costs of their own electricity.
What exactly am I supposed to do as a resident to change how a state government regulated utility operates? Please respond with something other than "Vote", which I already do.
Don't just vote, but contribute time and money supporting non-ideological candidates, ones that understand their primary responsibility is to be good stewards of local assets, not warriors for national or global political issues.
It's not easy identifying whose who because even the most pragmatic and honest politicians have to pay lip service to hot button topics. You just have to keep track of names and relationships over the years.
Sometimes it's mostly about taking an interest, reading or understand the legislation, and making a really good case and argument to the government.
I don't think I can claim credit because I'm sure I wasn't the only one, but it took 3 or 4 emails to a couple of legislator offices to get some policy changes. In my case it might've just been small enough (no news coverage, basically only a small number of people were aware of a regulatory memo), the first time or two they just kicked the can down the road deferring the implementation, until ultimately they reversed course. And my part was just laying out a very strong case for why the particular situation was unfair, how many people would be impacted (voters), etc. Nothing confrontational, just laying out the argument.
I've noticed there's a pattern of behavior with folks living in the forested parts of California where they expect everyone else to subsidize their impractical choice on where to put a house.
Extreme wildfire risks? let everyone else shoulder the cost, don't deny our fire insurance.
Power delivery infra costs (and associated risks, see wildfires)? don't make us actually pay for this, we're all in this together guys!
Few years ago everybody was talking about the inadequacies of our aging electricity distribution infrastructure and how it was a shame it wasn't being fixed and the risks it entails.
Now folks are wailing about the terrible AI come for our electricity and how awful the burden of the upgrades are.
When the upgrades were for solar they were good, when upgrades are for AI they're bad. It's almost like people just want to complain about anything associated with something they don't like regardless of relevance.
I'd say the people complaining about AI likely see EVs as having some utility. While AI may have some utility, the amount of resources invested seems to make it more of a ponzi scheme waiting to pop.
It's weird to read an article about how AI is ruining Lake Tahoe, with a map illustrating the problem, when the map itself has the world's most generic "100% generated by Claude" UI ever.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the article using the Claude map. It's just deeply funny somehow.
I'd love for us to get away from this trope of ever-increasing umbrella categories that you are discouraged from criticizing if you participate in it, very commonly marked by usage of the term "funny"/"hilarious" to imply hypocrisy.
The world is big and complicated. "AI" is the biggest umbrella category we have ever seen in modern civilization. There's nothing inherently wrong with criticizing AI while using AI. There's nothing inherently wrong with criticizing a country while living in that country. There's nothing inherently wrong with criticizing a company while using that company's service. Etc.
"Hypocrisy!" is a favorite accusation of those with the same-but-opposite bias as the one they are calling out. It's the easiest attack to construct, because you can point to anything and omit the complication of reality.
And people are hypocritical! That's part of why it's such an easy thing to claim. But it's also the reason you need a stronger argument than just stating the claim. You need to separate yourself from the endless sea of low-quality internet snipes that rely on simple accusations of hypocrisy.
Yea, this is basically the sentiment behind the Mister Gotcha meme[1]. It's a totally thought-terminating mentality, and arguments based on it should just be disregarded.
I'd rather the AI providers bear the cost of the externalities they inflict on the world.
If the cost to users is reasonable with that added burden I'll happily pay it. If it is not viable without passing costs on society, then they should not be in business.
On mobile the map prevents the user from scrolling down, you need to drag the padding area instead. Google maps embed doesn't have this issue as it requires two fingers to pan.
Isn't this just a false dichotomy in web comic form? Implying that there are only two options, full participant or complete withdrawal from society, as a means of suggesting that one cannot apply morals to how one chooses to engage with society.
But in reality, there are many many ways to engage in society, some more or less ethical/moral than others, and one is free to criticize individual choices.
Even if we consider something like social media, there is still a range of choices other than fully engaging in social media and rejecting all social media. There are attempts to use it responsible, limiting and curating use to less harmful versions while attempt to get most of the benefit, while still postulating that the overall effect of the average use case of social media is harming society.
It feels a lot like saying that, since it is impossible to live a perfectly ethical/moral life, ethics and morals can be completely ignored without regard for what options one does have available to them.
That's subjective my friend. The fact that you draw an opinion doesn't make it more valid. I think there's merit to confronting people on high horses to their own lies.
Hypocrites just can’t let go of this comic. They love it. It’s like they have one thing that they hold onto for dear life. I don’t think they’ll ever stop posting it lol
A lot of these types of AI complaints feel like blaming a pothole for cracking your windshield in half even though you've been driving around with it full of chips and micro cracks for years. It's certainly exacerbated the issue to a point where it's impossible to ignore now but the warning signs have been there for years- utilities and municipalities failing to secure power and water resources for future residents, companies engaging in mass layoffs only for the stock prices to climb. AI adoption aggravated the symptoms, the root causes remain the same.
I think it's more that our governments only leap to patch up some of those chips and cracks when big biz rolls thru, even though "the little guy" has been raising it as an issue for decades.
But then again, democracy absolutely fails in that you have to already be rich to be a politician most of the time and people tend to vote extremely tribally by party rather than on policies (lest they accidentally vote for the wrong party!)
The truth is in many democracies none of the parties are prepared to do what needs to be done most of the time, nor is the average voter prepared to accept any form of compromise or abstain from uninformed, knee-jerk and tribally motivated reactions to proposed policy.
I don't think it's that clear of a delineation especially in situations like this with utilities and governments wrestling over regulations. I believe that a lot of the folks who have been in the drivers seat and ignored the chips in the windshield that is the fabric of our society are happy to have something to direct blame towards no matter their affiliations or underlying beliefs about how resources ought to be managed, or even their own attitudes about AI usage.
i understand your point, however your "driver's seat" metaphor blurs the accountability of political representation IMO. Are voters in the "driver's seat"? Local governments?
What I see as a valuable point is that federal governments with subsidies that "distort" markets for public goods and externality regulation, worsen the "tragedy of the commons".
Explaining many things to a naive person, or a kid, boils down to this type of issue, you can even extend it to nation states.
Without experience of violence, most people would intuitively understand that a "competition" between governments is problematic.
> utilities and municipalities failing to secure power
To be fair, it's not as if they didn't often try to build more power.
As it turns out, most people don't like having a massive fuel-burning power plant near their homes. Now they don't even like having solar panel fields near their homes. These people often are the same kind to show up at city hall or public utility board meetings and raise a fuss.
Now, are they doing it and returning to houses that take a crapload (I do believe that is the technical term) of energy to heat and cool because of out-of-date windows, insulation, and HVAC controls? Maybe. Are they sometimes also the same people who hated the idea of phasing out incandescent bulbs? Probably. But either way, that power source ain't getting built.
> and water resources
Kansas City, St. Louis, Omaha, Des Moines, Milwaukee, Chicago, the Twin Cities, Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Columbus all sit on major rivers or massive freshwater lakes and aren't in a desert climate. We could do something with that.
It’s not clear that these high wildfire risk places should be populated. They’re like the flood plains of Texas. I don’t think any utility under CPUC pricing can reasonably supply them for a long time. The price comes out of something: defensible space clearing, lack of power generation contracts, or all this pushed to another vendor.
The vagaries of American politics allow for failure and then bailout as a mechanism for these sorts of situations but I think we can see the writing on the wall. 50k residents at an average million dollars a resident is $50 b so it is not quite possible to have a buyout so I see why we just allow for the decline.
But any more we allow for the place to be inhabited, the greater the risk. Otherwise it’s just an incredibly regressive use of our resources: taxing a lot of working age people in the more urbanized areas to fund wealthy retirees in the forest.
The current tide of California politics favors that and we can do it so long as our economic productivity is powered by tech but a time will come after and it’s better now to do this than after when we will find ourselves unable to sustain productive capacity.
It will be hilarious if Google built a data center in Nevada only to run Incline Village out of power (where Sergey Brin pretends to live as a tax dodge).
> where Sergey Brin pretends to live as a tax dodge
It's not just Brin who lives there. The median wealth of that town is at least 10x everywhere around it. It's the closest city in Nevada to the Bay Area. Back before California changed the law, if you had stock options you earned in CA and then moved to NV before you sold them, you could avoid paying income tax. Or if you sold your company.
I know multiple people who moved to Incline right before vesting or selling. They would come back to the Bay Area each weekend to see their wife and kids and work remotely during the week. As long as they spent more than 1/2 their time in NV they didn't have to pay CA tax.
CA has since closed that loophole -- if you earn it in CA they will come for the tax even if you live in another state when you sell it. But for the last 20+ years, it was a tax strategy that a lot of people used.
Good. I don't think any electricity should be used for homes. It's wastes resources on people who will soon be economically unviable, and really constrains the data center build-out.
just as a thought experiment, say you're an entrepreneur, how would you solve this problem?
whether it AI, Data Centers, EVs...I'm seeing this problem more and more, we need more energy/power. I'm curious to see what others think are possible viable solutions.
This isn't a problem that can be solved by a clever entrepreneur. This is what government is for. When you have a shared resource that everyone needs, government is the best option for making sure its distribution is fair.
We already know how to solve this: make transmission owned by the government, make generation free-market. Cities do this already. The city of Santa Clara owns all the transmission, and then buys power on the open market along with generating themselves.
The result is their power costs 1/2 as much as all the surrounding cities that have PG&E.
I was actually going to disagree on first glance but I absolutely agree with this.
Transmission has no business edge, you will gain the best economies of scale by having the city (or larger regional) manage it.
Free-market works on the generation side because as prices change, producers can decide to build out more capacity or innovate to gain an edge. I don’t think a single monopoly construct, like the PG&Es of the world, have incentive to innovate and properly serve the market.
I still think decoupling generation from transmission is part of the problem and I don’t know if I love the construct of a single legislated monopoly.
In this specific case, Liberty and constituents should have come up with a plan on the first contract term for generation. Maybe it meant spinning up their own generation plant within CA or NV.
It’s not a popular idea here but I still think energy markets can help solve this problem. If you have multiple producers and a market rate for electricity you can more quickly incentivize new generation and innovation compared to the single operator monopolies that exist.
I'd come up with a variety of ways to interfere with the placement of datacenters, and I'd sell them as a service to people who don't want a datacenter to interfere with their access to water or electricity. This would be, hopfully, absurd enough to make the government realize that they need to step in and make my business model irrelevant.
Nuclear has a ton of VC interest right now. Or the robinhood dude with his space beaming stuff.
I think anything you can do to add to the energy mix is worthwhile atm. Does America produce any domestic solar panels? I’m talking wafers not assembly.
Entrepreneurs know exactly how to solve this issue: panels, batteries, and wires. But it isn't so simple when you face 20 years of permitting between BLM, USFS, tribes, states, counties, cities, and individual litigation. If you want an example of how bad this is look at the permitting timeline for SunZia in New Mexico and its transmission line to California.
Gas pipelines don't have the same problem because the federal government exercises centralized permitting and eminent domain powers for fossil fuels under a 1938 law, and there is no corresponding statute for electric lines.
You can make a reasonable case for transmission and distribution to be a government operated public utility. But we need aggressive private industry competition on the generation and storage side in order to prevent shortages.
And do those countries have large and rapidly growing demand? A free market is the only reliable way to respond effectively to changing demand signals. Economic central planning always fails over the long term.
> And do those countries have large and rapidly growing demand? A free market is the only reliable way to respond effectively to changing demand signals. Economic central planning always fails over the long term.
It's not the only reliable way.
Also the free market has a bad habit of settling on "most profitable" (in the short-medium term) configurations by sacrificing resiliency.
> Economic central planning always fails over the long term.
So do businesses - capitalism has business failure built in and expected. Private industry in energy has failed the public dramatically at times. Economic planning works in many respects - lots of places do fine with roads, energy, healthcare, water, gas, other transport infra (airports, subways, etc.).
The question is, which tool does what well, and how do we apply them? Private industry is good for rapid innovation and development, and for keeping things off the public ledger - smartphones, etc. It isn't good when failure isn't an option, such as police, water, ... look at hospitals, for a current example.
> central planning
These are bogey scare words - what is central about it? It's not a 5 year plan for the entire economy of the entire country.
In the US, power is a public utility. And regulated as such. The providers can be private though and depends a lot on the location.
Personally, I wouldn’t trust my city or county to operate a power plant and transmission lines. I’m happy that power is regulated by my state as a natural monopoly.
SVP delivers over 90% of their energy to commercial customers, making it a bit of a special case. However it does prove the hypothesis that large-scale consumers tend to lower, not raise, the local retail price for energy.
As for SF, there is no real sense in which they are trying to kick out PG&E. While there is and always has been a vocal group of SF residents who want a free pony, when it comes down to paying the bills SF has voted in 12 separate elections to not establish a municipal utility. They have a demonstrated history of failure to invest in their own utilities stretching back 100 years.
That there are city owned utilities doesn't seem to refute any of prepend's statement.
> In the US, power is a public utility.
A city owned utility is both a public utiliy because it offers a utility service to the public and a public utility because it is municipally owned.
> And regulated as such.
I expect Burbank W&P is regulated by the CPUC, same as other power utilities that operate in California.
> The providers can be private though and depends a lot on the location.
Many providers are private; this one isn't, and it depends on the location.
> Personally, I wouldn’t trust my city or county to operate a power plant and transmission lines. I’m happy that power is regulated by my state as a natural monopoly.
This is, like prepend's opinion, man. I assume they are truthfully expressing their trust and happiness. Even if they lived within the service area of Burbank W&P or another municipal power utility, they might not trust it.
As to power being a natural monopoly, it's hard to tell exactly given that it exists in a highly regulated market; but I don't know of any US markets where there is a choice for electrical distribution. You get the utility that serves your property, or you get to pay them to build their network to serve your property, or you get no utility power (and in some locations, no certiticate of occupancy). I'm sure there's some exceptions such as a lot that stradles the service areas or a lot with a high availability use that requirea feeds from multiple substations and it makes more sense to wire to a substation from a neighboring utility. And there's the legacy DC power networks in some old cities. But generally, there's no overbuilding of competing distribution lines; unlike say telecom where many areas have at least two of copper telephone, copper coax cable, and fiber telecom; and often several vendors if you're willing to pay commercial rates for cabling.
Private companies can operate more efficiently offering better service and competitive pricing. How do you not know that privatization is the solution? /s
TL;DR Libertarian separatists, who went so far as to name their utility "Liberty Utilities", organized their utility in 2009 under a temporary agreement with Nevada, which was extended twice, and now after almost two decades of failing to invest in their own generating assets they will be deprioritized by their ex-partner.
I see that a sibling comment beat me to it, but "Libertarian separatists"? They're well-organized separatists given they're spread across, what, a couple dozen states? It's quite the narrative you've spun, and it would be almost as interesting if it were true.
Liberty Utilities has nothing to do with libertarian separatists. It's a brand name of Algonquin Power & Utilities Corp, a boring Canadian infrastructure conglomerate that buys regulated water, gas, and electric systems across North America. They bought this chunk of rural California grid from NV Energy in 2009. That's it.
There are two simultaneous problems that I've come to understand with datacenters and the people that live in their proximity:
1. Somehow the public is always left holding the bag for increased transmission costs despite the cause of the increase being a single (or short list) of outliers.
2. The residential public, as is tradition, is always asked to scale down for industrial demand.
How can we imagine expanding a system that results in both of these outcomes? That, to me, seems to be the thing to fix first.
The idea that capitalism off loads the cost of externalities onto the unwitting public is nothing new. This is just the most recent and obvious version. Air anbd water pollution are the old ones. They make the pollution and the public pays for it with superfund sites or increased health care costs.
The solution is having the consumer pay for the externalities when they use the product. But this would make AI so much more expensive. When you use AI you are exploiting other people. Just keep that in mind.
This is an interesting problem. I have been wanting to dig deeper on some of the complaints around water and power. This one is unique though.
Doesn’t read much like a problem so much with data center growth as it does with Liberty mismanaging their business/assets. For almost 20 years liberty acted as nothing more than a transmission operator with very weak agreements on power generation. They should have been figuring out this problem long ago.
I would think that a lot of rural electrical cooperatives are "nothing more than a transmission operator" i.e. they own/manage/maintain the lines from their providers out to their customers, but don't have the capital or expertise to run generating plants.
“nothing more than a transmission operator with very weak agreements on power generation” don’t take the quote out of context now.
I would bet most coops have fairly concrete contracts on generation. This one is unique because they were using usage from a grid they have no standing in. Weak agreement, folks should have been figuring it out 20 years ago.
Humans are bad at solving problems before they need to be solved.
I didn’t realize the scale of data centers in northern Nevada. Residential customers will mostly pay 70% for the transmission line costs. 12 data centers by 2033 with 5,900 MW of power.
“NV Energy is building Greenlink West, a 525-kV, $4.2 billion transmission line from Las Vegas to Yerington, expected online in May 2027. Schwarzrock said Liberty would be “first in the waiting line” when Greenlink opens, giving it access to a wider pool of energy providers. But that timeline matches the contract deadline exactly, leaving almost no margin for error. About 70% of the project’s costs will be borne by Southern Nevada customers. But this is nothing new, at least according to NV Energy.”
At lot of west coast datacenters have moved to Nevada in search of lower land prices and better seismic risk. Vegas is a major hub now too.
Related coverage without invoking the AI bogeyman:
"Liberty Utilities needs to replace 75% of Tahoe power supply as NV Energy deal ends soon"
https://mynews4.com/news/local/liberty-utilities-needs-to-re...
> without invoking the AI bogeyman
If AI is the cause of these data centers, why is it not the bogey man? This sounds like you personally want to use AI with out acknowledging the externalities and the burden your use of AI puts on your fellow citizens.
This is like the movie Chinatown, where people were fighting over water, but now it's all about electricity.
It sounds like Lake Tahoe residents kicked the can down the road and didn't care about electricity for so long that now they have to pay the piper. I think it's entire just that they have to bear the costs of their own electricity.
What exactly am I supposed to do as a resident to change how a state government regulated utility operates? Please respond with something other than "Vote", which I already do.
Don't just vote, but contribute time and money supporting non-ideological candidates, ones that understand their primary responsibility is to be good stewards of local assets, not warriors for national or global political issues.
It's not easy identifying whose who because even the most pragmatic and honest politicians have to pay lip service to hot button topics. You just have to keep track of names and relationships over the years.
Make politics local again. (MPLA?)
Sometimes it's mostly about taking an interest, reading or understand the legislation, and making a really good case and argument to the government.
I don't think I can claim credit because I'm sure I wasn't the only one, but it took 3 or 4 emails to a couple of legislator offices to get some policy changes. In my case it might've just been small enough (no news coverage, basically only a small number of people were aware of a regulatory memo), the first time or two they just kicked the can down the road deferring the implementation, until ultimately they reversed course. And my part was just laying out a very strong case for why the particular situation was unfair, how many people would be impacted (voters), etc. Nothing confrontational, just laying out the argument.
If they are a Rural Electric Membership Corporation (REMC) you could vote for the board members, or run for office yourself.
That’s how I read it too. Liberty alongside constituents had 20 years to figure it out.
Data centers are just the new shock titles that people eat up.
I've noticed there's a pattern of behavior with folks living in the forested parts of California where they expect everyone else to subsidize their impractical choice on where to put a house.
Extreme wildfire risks? let everyone else shoulder the cost, don't deny our fire insurance.
Power delivery infra costs (and associated risks, see wildfires)? don't make us actually pay for this, we're all in this together guys!
This is a good point when it comes to comes to the issues with "taming" the free market.
Eh, not really.
Few years ago everybody was talking about the inadequacies of our aging electricity distribution infrastructure and how it was a shame it wasn't being fixed and the risks it entails.
Now folks are wailing about the terrible AI come for our electricity and how awful the burden of the upgrades are.
When the upgrades were for solar they were good, when upgrades are for AI they're bad. It's almost like people just want to complain about anything associated with something they don't like regardless of relevance.
It's almost like people just want to complain about anything associated with something they don't like regardless of relevance.
I've noticed that we don't hear a lot about the EV boogyman taking down our electric grid now that AI has come to town.
I'd say the people complaining about AI likely see EVs as having some utility. While AI may have some utility, the amount of resources invested seems to make it more of a ponzi scheme waiting to pop.
EVs can also (at least in some cases) be charged from on-prem solar panels and not burden the public grid at all.
> When the upgrades were for solar they were good, when upgrades are for AI they're bad.
Do you look at every issue in this 50,000 foot view with no nuance or even basic details, or is just certain ones?
It's weird to read an article about how AI is ruining Lake Tahoe, with a map illustrating the problem, when the map itself has the world's most generic "100% generated by Claude" UI ever.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the article using the Claude map. It's just deeply funny somehow.
I'd love for us to get away from this trope of ever-increasing umbrella categories that you are discouraged from criticizing if you participate in it, very commonly marked by usage of the term "funny"/"hilarious" to imply hypocrisy.
The world is big and complicated. "AI" is the biggest umbrella category we have ever seen in modern civilization. There's nothing inherently wrong with criticizing AI while using AI. There's nothing inherently wrong with criticizing a country while living in that country. There's nothing inherently wrong with criticizing a company while using that company's service. Etc.
"Hypocrisy!" is a favorite accusation of those with the same-but-opposite bias as the one they are calling out. It's the easiest attack to construct, because you can point to anything and omit the complication of reality.
And people are hypocritical! That's part of why it's such an easy thing to claim. But it's also the reason you need a stronger argument than just stating the claim. You need to separate yourself from the endless sea of low-quality internet snipes that rely on simple accusations of hypocrisy.
Agree and it has applied to pretty much everything for a long time.
It's why when I bitch about the UK, I get told if I don't like it why don't I leave.
It's like my dudes fail to grasp to concept of loving something and wanting it to be even better, to solve minor quibbles with it.
Yea, this is basically the sentiment behind the Mister Gotcha meme[1]. It's a totally thought-terminating mentality, and arguments based on it should just be disregarded.
1: https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
My read is
People complain about AI in public, use it heavily in private, complain about datacenters in public, slam their fists about usage limits in private.
In short, typical human behavior, want to have their cake and eat it too.
It’s like using social media to spread your message about how social media is bad and addictive.
You don’t really have another option unless you want to ostracize yourself from the society you’re trying to change.
I'd rather the AI providers bear the cost of the externalities they inflict on the world.
If the cost to users is reasonable with that added burden I'll happily pay it. If it is not viable without passing costs on society, then they should not be in business.
On mobile the map prevents the user from scrolling down, you need to drag the padding area instead. Google maps embed doesn't have this issue as it requires two fingers to pan.
"Breaking: Smartphone producers known to rely on slave labor keep doing it. Posted from my iPhone"
That isnt the slam you think it is.
https://truthout.org/art/mister-gotcha/
Isn't this just a false dichotomy in web comic form? Implying that there are only two options, full participant or complete withdrawal from society, as a means of suggesting that one cannot apply morals to how one chooses to engage with society.
But in reality, there are many many ways to engage in society, some more or less ethical/moral than others, and one is free to criticize individual choices.
Even if we consider something like social media, there is still a range of choices other than fully engaging in social media and rejecting all social media. There are attempts to use it responsible, limiting and curating use to less harmful versions while attempt to get most of the benefit, while still postulating that the overall effect of the average use case of social media is harming society.
It feels a lot like saying that, since it is impossible to live a perfectly ethical/moral life, ethics and morals can be completely ignored without regard for what options one does have available to them.
GP comment was basically verbatim from first 2 panel, with slaves replaced with decent wages.
Point being, you can complain about thing, even if you are forced to interact with said thing.
That's subjective my friend. The fact that you draw an opinion doesn't make it more valid. I think there's merit to confronting people on high horses to their own lies.
Hypocrites just can’t let go of this comic. They love it. It’s like they have one thing that they hold onto for dear life. I don’t think they’ll ever stop posting it lol
It's truly ironic the way this comic is now primarily used as part of the same behavior it's criticizing.
Im sure you are very intelligent.
A lot of these types of AI complaints feel like blaming a pothole for cracking your windshield in half even though you've been driving around with it full of chips and micro cracks for years. It's certainly exacerbated the issue to a point where it's impossible to ignore now but the warning signs have been there for years- utilities and municipalities failing to secure power and water resources for future residents, companies engaging in mass layoffs only for the stock prices to climb. AI adoption aggravated the symptoms, the root causes remain the same.
I think it's more that our governments only leap to patch up some of those chips and cracks when big biz rolls thru, even though "the little guy" has been raising it as an issue for decades.
But then again, democracy absolutely fails in that you have to already be rich to be a politician most of the time and people tend to vote extremely tribally by party rather than on policies (lest they accidentally vote for the wrong party!)
The truth is in many democracies none of the parties are prepared to do what needs to be done most of the time, nor is the average voter prepared to accept any form of compromise or abstain from uninformed, knee-jerk and tribally motivated reactions to proposed policy.
Aka we only have our dumb selves to blame.
The difference is whether the government or the people are complaining then, right?
Or do you have something else in mind?
To me it's a classic "commons" problem. All our wealth in the end comes from extracting common resources and "making the best" of it.
Whether "the best" is to sustain population levels or to maximize private capital is a political question.
As of now, demanding things like free access to clean water is considered ideological and misguided by many people, maybe even "extreme".
I don't think it's that clear of a delineation especially in situations like this with utilities and governments wrestling over regulations. I believe that a lot of the folks who have been in the drivers seat and ignored the chips in the windshield that is the fabric of our society are happy to have something to direct blame towards no matter their affiliations or underlying beliefs about how resources ought to be managed, or even their own attitudes about AI usage.
i understand your point, however your "driver's seat" metaphor blurs the accountability of political representation IMO. Are voters in the "driver's seat"? Local governments?
What I see as a valuable point is that federal governments with subsidies that "distort" markets for public goods and externality regulation, worsen the "tragedy of the commons".
Explaining many things to a naive person, or a kid, boils down to this type of issue, you can even extend it to nation states.
Without experience of violence, most people would intuitively understand that a "competition" between governments is problematic.
Same issue, different undertones: tax havens.
> utilities and municipalities failing to secure power
To be fair, it's not as if they didn't often try to build more power.
As it turns out, most people don't like having a massive fuel-burning power plant near their homes. Now they don't even like having solar panel fields near their homes. These people often are the same kind to show up at city hall or public utility board meetings and raise a fuss.
Now, are they doing it and returning to houses that take a crapload (I do believe that is the technical term) of energy to heat and cool because of out-of-date windows, insulation, and HVAC controls? Maybe. Are they sometimes also the same people who hated the idea of phasing out incandescent bulbs? Probably. But either way, that power source ain't getting built.
> and water resources
Kansas City, St. Louis, Omaha, Des Moines, Milwaukee, Chicago, the Twin Cities, Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Columbus all sit on major rivers or massive freshwater lakes and aren't in a desert climate. We could do something with that.
It’s not clear that these high wildfire risk places should be populated. They’re like the flood plains of Texas. I don’t think any utility under CPUC pricing can reasonably supply them for a long time. The price comes out of something: defensible space clearing, lack of power generation contracts, or all this pushed to another vendor.
The vagaries of American politics allow for failure and then bailout as a mechanism for these sorts of situations but I think we can see the writing on the wall. 50k residents at an average million dollars a resident is $50 b so it is not quite possible to have a buyout so I see why we just allow for the decline.
But any more we allow for the place to be inhabited, the greater the risk. Otherwise it’s just an incredibly regressive use of our resources: taxing a lot of working age people in the more urbanized areas to fund wealthy retirees in the forest.
The current tide of California politics favors that and we can do it so long as our economic productivity is powered by tech but a time will come after and it’s better now to do this than after when we will find ourselves unable to sustain productive capacity.
It will be hilarious if Google built a data center in Nevada only to run Incline Village out of power (where Sergey Brin pretends to live as a tax dodge).
> where Sergey Brin pretends to live as a tax dodge
It's not just Brin who lives there. The median wealth of that town is at least 10x everywhere around it. It's the closest city in Nevada to the Bay Area. Back before California changed the law, if you had stock options you earned in CA and then moved to NV before you sold them, you could avoid paying income tax. Or if you sold your company.
I know multiple people who moved to Incline right before vesting or selling. They would come back to the Bay Area each weekend to see their wife and kids and work remotely during the week. As long as they spent more than 1/2 their time in NV they didn't have to pay CA tax.
CA has since closed that loophole -- if you earn it in CA they will come for the tax even if you live in another state when you sell it. But for the last 20+ years, it was a tax strategy that a lot of people used.
It's not just personal wealth either, Apple uses a shell company in Reno, NV to tax dodge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braeburn_Capital
Good. I don't think any electricity should be used for homes. It's wastes resources on people who will soon be economically unviable, and really constrains the data center build-out.
just as a thought experiment, say you're an entrepreneur, how would you solve this problem?
whether it AI, Data Centers, EVs...I'm seeing this problem more and more, we need more energy/power. I'm curious to see what others think are possible viable solutions.
This isn't a problem that can be solved by a clever entrepreneur. This is what government is for. When you have a shared resource that everyone needs, government is the best option for making sure its distribution is fair.
We already know how to solve this: make transmission owned by the government, make generation free-market. Cities do this already. The city of Santa Clara owns all the transmission, and then buys power on the open market along with generating themselves.
The result is their power costs 1/2 as much as all the surrounding cities that have PG&E.
I was actually going to disagree on first glance but I absolutely agree with this.
Transmission has no business edge, you will gain the best economies of scale by having the city (or larger regional) manage it.
Free-market works on the generation side because as prices change, producers can decide to build out more capacity or innovate to gain an edge. I don’t think a single monopoly construct, like the PG&Es of the world, have incentive to innovate and properly serve the market.
I still think decoupling generation from transmission is part of the problem and I don’t know if I love the construct of a single legislated monopoly.
In this specific case, Liberty and constituents should have come up with a plan on the first contract term for generation. Maybe it meant spinning up their own generation plant within CA or NV.
It’s not a popular idea here but I still think energy markets can help solve this problem. If you have multiple producers and a market rate for electricity you can more quickly incentivize new generation and innovation compared to the single operator monopolies that exist.
I'd come up with a variety of ways to interfere with the placement of datacenters, and I'd sell them as a service to people who don't want a datacenter to interfere with their access to water or electricity. This would be, hopfully, absurd enough to make the government realize that they need to step in and make my business model irrelevant.
Nuclear has a ton of VC interest right now. Or the robinhood dude with his space beaming stuff.
I think anything you can do to add to the energy mix is worthwhile atm. Does America produce any domestic solar panels? I’m talking wafers not assembly.
become a politician and make electricity a public resource, as it should be
Entrepreneurs know exactly how to solve this issue: panels, batteries, and wires. But it isn't so simple when you face 20 years of permitting between BLM, USFS, tribes, states, counties, cities, and individual litigation. If you want an example of how bad this is look at the permitting timeline for SunZia in New Mexico and its transmission line to California.
Gas pipelines don't have the same problem because the federal government exercises centralized permitting and eminent domain powers for fossil fuels under a 1938 law, and there is no corresponding statute for electric lines.
Has there been any attempt for some sort of legislation that would allow utility solar or electric lines to be included in that?
Power should be a public utility, just like water and sewage.
You can make a reasonable case for transmission and distribution to be a government operated public utility. But we need aggressive private industry competition on the generation and storage side in order to prevent shortages.
Why ? Many country have public generation without any shortages.
And do those countries have large and rapidly growing demand? A free market is the only reliable way to respond effectively to changing demand signals. Economic central planning always fails over the long term.
> And do those countries have large and rapidly growing demand? A free market is the only reliable way to respond effectively to changing demand signals. Economic central planning always fails over the long term.
It's not the only reliable way.
Also the free market has a bad habit of settling on "most profitable" (in the short-medium term) configurations by sacrificing resiliency.
> Economic central planning always fails over the long term.
So do businesses - capitalism has business failure built in and expected. Private industry in energy has failed the public dramatically at times. Economic planning works in many respects - lots of places do fine with roads, energy, healthcare, water, gas, other transport infra (airports, subways, etc.).
The question is, which tool does what well, and how do we apply them? Private industry is good for rapid innovation and development, and for keeping things off the public ledger - smartphones, etc. It isn't good when failure isn't an option, such as police, water, ... look at hospitals, for a current example.
> central planning
These are bogey scare words - what is central about it? It's not a 5 year plan for the entire economy of the entire country.
In the US, power is a public utility. And regulated as such. The providers can be private though and depends a lot on the location.
Personally, I wouldn’t trust my city or county to operate a power plant and transmission lines. I’m happy that power is regulated by my state as a natural monopoly.
That is not 100% true though. In Burbank, CA the power is city owned.
https://www.burbankwaterandpower.com/
In the bay area, Santa Clara has city owned power, and residents pay something like a third of what the rest of the bay area does per kilowatt hour.
Part of the inspiration for why SF is trying to kick out PGE and have municipal power.
SVP delivers over 90% of their energy to commercial customers, making it a bit of a special case. However it does prove the hypothesis that large-scale consumers tend to lower, not raise, the local retail price for energy.
As for SF, there is no real sense in which they are trying to kick out PG&E. While there is and always has been a vocal group of SF residents who want a free pony, when it comes down to paying the bills SF has voted in 12 separate elections to not establish a municipal utility. They have a demonstrated history of failure to invest in their own utilities stretching back 100 years.
I didn’t say it was 100% true and there are exceptions.
I don’t know the true distribution, but I’d wager the vast majority of the US is served by either a corporation or some non-government organization.
Now I know and it’s 1/7 or about 15% of Americans have government or community owned power. [0]
[0] https://www.publicpower.org/public-power
That there are city owned utilities doesn't seem to refute any of prepend's statement.
> In the US, power is a public utility.
A city owned utility is both a public utiliy because it offers a utility service to the public and a public utility because it is municipally owned.
> And regulated as such.
I expect Burbank W&P is regulated by the CPUC, same as other power utilities that operate in California.
> The providers can be private though and depends a lot on the location.
Many providers are private; this one isn't, and it depends on the location.
> Personally, I wouldn’t trust my city or county to operate a power plant and transmission lines. I’m happy that power is regulated by my state as a natural monopoly.
This is, like prepend's opinion, man. I assume they are truthfully expressing their trust and happiness. Even if they lived within the service area of Burbank W&P or another municipal power utility, they might not trust it.
As to power being a natural monopoly, it's hard to tell exactly given that it exists in a highly regulated market; but I don't know of any US markets where there is a choice for electrical distribution. You get the utility that serves your property, or you get to pay them to build their network to serve your property, or you get no utility power (and in some locations, no certiticate of occupancy). I'm sure there's some exceptions such as a lot that stradles the service areas or a lot with a high availability use that requirea feeds from multiple substations and it makes more sense to wire to a substation from a neighboring utility. And there's the legacy DC power networks in some old cities. But generally, there's no overbuilding of competing distribution lines; unlike say telecom where many areas have at least two of copper telephone, copper coax cable, and fiber telecom; and often several vendors if you're willing to pay commercial rates for cabling.
Palo Alto's power is city owned as well. I think we're building out fiber too.
Public infrastructure shouldn't be private. Imagine the nightmare of privately owned roads and highways.
A somewhat more prominent example of this model would be Los Angeles Department of Water and Power.
Does prominence really matter when providing supporting evidence to contradictory statement?
Concord, MA, has a municipal power company and a municipal isp. I think they run a power plant, but I know they maintain the transmission lines.
Private companies can operate more efficiently offering better service and competitive pricing. How do you not know that privatization is the solution? /s
Northern Nevada would be such an obvious place to build out large amounts of solar energy as well
There are quite a few already (though not as many as in the southern part): https://cleanview.co/solar-farms/nevada
Same content: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/nearly-50-000-lake-tahoe-1709...
TL;DR Libertarian separatists, who went so far as to name their utility "Liberty Utilities", organized their utility in 2009 under a temporary agreement with Nevada, which was extended twice, and now after almost two decades of failing to invest in their own generating assets they will be deprioritized by their ex-partner.
I see that a sibling comment beat me to it, but "Libertarian separatists"? They're well-organized separatists given they're spread across, what, a couple dozen states? It's quite the narrative you've spun, and it would be almost as interesting if it were true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquin_Power_%26_Utilities
Your backstory is complete nonsense.
Liberty Utilities has nothing to do with libertarian separatists. It's a brand name of Algonquin Power & Utilities Corp, a boring Canadian infrastructure conglomerate that buys regulated water, gas, and electric systems across North America. They bought this chunk of rural California grid from NV Energy in 2009. That's it.
Biosacks will be pushed to the margins as more GDP share is created by tokens and corporations are able to lobby for votes.