Whether it's AMP or manifest 3 or android source shenanigan or attempts to replace cookies with their FLOC nonsense or this...Google is rapidly turning into a malicious force when it comes to the open internet
Yeah, same. It is hard; we start to need a collective boycott.
We can all do our part, by using their products as little as possible, contribute to open alternatives (OpenStreetMap, Fediverse, Linux, Nextcloud...) and by stimulating our (non-techie!) friends and family.
The technical challenge is actually the smaller one. The real one is to get people to care. Don't be tricked by the HN/techie bubble. Most people don't understand the problem, or don't see it as a problem because nothing smacked them in the face yet. Any attempts to explain it makes you sound like a lunatic to some, or just a bit of a worrier to others.
Whether it's targeted ads, or training AI on your data, or verifying your age and implicitly identity, or "fraud defense", most people happily take it in exchange for a convenient freebie which is why things keep escalating.
It's understandable, people are assaulted with all kinds of abuses from every direction. There are more immediate threats that people can grasp more easily so this stuff has to wait its turn.
But remember: once again, don't simply get angry at Google the institution. Get angry at Page and Brin personally. They have the power to prevent this, a power they were careful to preserve when they gave Google its IPO. They are fully responsible for Google's choices here. But, partly because they aren't constantly jumping up and down drawing attention to themselves on social media, they've tended to escape the same personal scrutiny given to eg. Elon Musk. That needs to end.
We do need to abandon the reality where we use the same few companies on a daily basis and get back to what's now hidden the under-the-surface: forums, blogs, personal websites. We need to re-discover the "free" internet we used to have before Facebook and smartphone dystopia happened.
I disagree that this kind of scheme is inevitable. We can "evit" it through thoughtful discussion, foresight, alternative mitigations, and even regulation. Certainly, Google can choose to avoid it. On the other hand, the AI bubble will inevitably burst, since compute is not free. I look forward to post-bubble AI.
Water use and mass displacement of labor get all the attention but there are so many other more subtle reasons like this that AI is going to be bad for society.
The only real solution is to aggressively name and shame the engineers who build this tech. They should feel uncomfortable opening their door, walking down the street.
(A bunch of engineers who build this tech will probably be complaining about how unfair my proposal is, boo hoo)
You don't think that some people simply disagree with the idea that this is bad? Or like maybe the CAPTCHA company who put out the post has an agenda here? So you want to go after engineers personally?
I wonder what you've done that might warrant harassment?
Look at how complicated CAPTCHAs are getting to try to be unsolvable with AI - it's a losing game. This and the WEI proposal are trying to solve a very, very real problem. If you continue to deny the problem, or every proposal solution without working towards an acceptable one, people will route around the blockage.
The crux of the problem is that their solution involves making themselves the gatekeepers of who is and isn't allowed. And that's a power that no one unaccountable organization should wield.
Given how important internet is to modern society, letting any one entity decide who should and should not have access is nearing a human rights issue.
> You don't think that some people simply disagree with the idea that this is bad?
Where are they? Where? Can you point me to one person in this thread who "disagrees with the idea that this is bad"? Apparently even you don't go that far.
This case is trivially circumvented with device farms, much like described in the post.
What real problem are they trying to solve? AI bots reading content? That’s not something Google want to prevent, it’s part of their business model, this would allow them to easily circumvent it for themselves though.
The usual argumentation is "I need to make a living" and "if I didn't build it someone else would have done an even worse job, like this at least I could be an activist on the inside and guide the efforts to make it better".
Another method is to stall and sabotage the development via endless bike shedding, language changes, rewrites, refactors. All normal things in every project. Drag those feet.
I think the better alternative to making engineers "feel uncomfortable opening their door, walking down the street" is for us to collectively ask if the solution isn't to touch more grass and rely less on the technology we've all come to blindly accept as required.
I mean, I hate this QR code shit as much as anyone, but c'mon, we can and should be better - both in how we treat others, and how much we rely on this shit.
Given all the negative comments here - what is anyone's alternate solution for AI-driven fraudulent activity?
CAPTCHAs are increasingly ineffective. Services are either going to go offline or implement some kind of system like this. PII like credit cards or SSNs aren't enough because those are regularly stolen.
So where do things go? Fewer services and infinite fraud?
Whether it's AMP or manifest 3 or android source shenanigan or attempts to replace cookies with their FLOC nonsense or this...Google is rapidly turning into a malicious force when it comes to the open internet
Exactly my thoughts. I am unfathomably angry and I want to contribute to any effort to dismantle Google as a company.
Yeah, same. It is hard; we start to need a collective boycott.
We can all do our part, by using their products as little as possible, contribute to open alternatives (OpenStreetMap, Fediverse, Linux, Nextcloud...) and by stimulating our (non-techie!) friends and family.
But it is a lot of work :(
It's less work than 10 years ago. So many much more mature alternatives.
The technical challenge is actually the smaller one. The real one is to get people to care. Don't be tricked by the HN/techie bubble. Most people don't understand the problem, or don't see it as a problem because nothing smacked them in the face yet. Any attempts to explain it makes you sound like a lunatic to some, or just a bit of a worrier to others.
Whether it's targeted ads, or training AI on your data, or verifying your age and implicitly identity, or "fraud defense", most people happily take it in exchange for a convenient freebie which is why things keep escalating.
It's understandable, people are assaulted with all kinds of abuses from every direction. There are more immediate threats that people can grasp more easily so this stuff has to wait its turn.
But remember: once again, don't simply get angry at Google the institution. Get angry at Page and Brin personally. They have the power to prevent this, a power they were careful to preserve when they gave Google its IPO. They are fully responsible for Google's choices here. But, partly because they aren't constantly jumping up and down drawing attention to themselves on social media, they've tended to escape the same personal scrutiny given to eg. Elon Musk. That needs to end.
In a world where everything is shit, could I at least take away some solace in this helping to reduce Cloudflares hegemony?
We do need to abandon the reality where we use the same few companies on a daily basis and get back to what's now hidden the under-the-surface: forums, blogs, personal websites. We need to re-discover the "free" internet we used to have before Facebook and smartphone dystopia happened.
Related:
Google Cloud fraud defense, the next evolution of reCAPTCHA
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48061938
AI use is far more prevalent now than then sadly. This kind of scheme is inevitable since compute is not free.
I disagree that this kind of scheme is inevitable. We can "evit" it through thoughtful discussion, foresight, alternative mitigations, and even regulation. Certainly, Google can choose to avoid it. On the other hand, the AI bubble will inevitably burst, since compute is not free. I look forward to post-bubble AI.
“Evit” is “avoid” in English, they have the same root.
Water use and mass displacement of labor get all the attention but there are so many other more subtle reasons like this that AI is going to be bad for society.
I fucking hate this future. It's bleak. The engineers participating in this should be ashamed.
They shouldn't just be ashamed. They should be shunned at the very least.
There's a good chance they're on HN FWIW. If you are and you're reading this: Fuck you. Reconsider which side you want to be on!
But but but but ... now that huge tech has declared copyright invalid because of AI they must prevent you from copying Mickey Mouse! Urgently.
Of course courts will undo their current copyright stance as soon as someone "uncopyrights" Disney movies, which is of course coming, but for now ...
Will SOMEBODY think of the billions?
The only real solution is to aggressively name and shame the engineers who build this tech. They should feel uncomfortable opening their door, walking down the street.
(A bunch of engineers who build this tech will probably be complaining about how unfair my proposal is, boo hoo)
You don't think that some people simply disagree with the idea that this is bad? Or like maybe the CAPTCHA company who put out the post has an agenda here? So you want to go after engineers personally?
I wonder what you've done that might warrant harassment?
Look at how complicated CAPTCHAs are getting to try to be unsolvable with AI - it's a losing game. This and the WEI proposal are trying to solve a very, very real problem. If you continue to deny the problem, or every proposal solution without working towards an acceptable one, people will route around the blockage.
The crux of the problem is that their solution involves making themselves the gatekeepers of who is and isn't allowed. And that's a power that no one unaccountable organization should wield.
Given how important internet is to modern society, letting any one entity decide who should and should not have access is nearing a human rights issue.
> You don't think that some people simply disagree with the idea that this is bad?
Where are they? Where? Can you point me to one person in this thread who "disagrees with the idea that this is bad"? Apparently even you don't go that far.
> You don't think that some people simply disagree with the idea that this is bad?
Some people think women shouldn’t be allowed to vote, not all opinions are created equal.
This case is trivially circumvented with device farms, much like described in the post. What real problem are they trying to solve? AI bots reading content? That’s not something Google want to prevent, it’s part of their business model, this would allow them to easily circumvent it for themselves though.
The usual argumentation is "I need to make a living" and "if I didn't build it someone else would have done an even worse job, like this at least I could be an activist on the inside and guide the efforts to make it better".
Another method is to stall and sabotage the development via endless bike shedding, language changes, rewrites, refactors. All normal things in every project. Drag those feet.
Which are of course delusional excuses when they come from anyone working at Google.
Then they'll come with "but I have a family and mortgage". No shit, so does literally everyone.
I think I'd have to be working at Google to afford a family and/or mortgage!
I don't have a family or a mortgage.
I think the better alternative to making engineers "feel uncomfortable opening their door, walking down the street" is for us to collectively ask if the solution isn't to touch more grass and rely less on the technology we've all come to blindly accept as required.
I mean, I hate this QR code shit as much as anyone, but c'mon, we can and should be better - both in how we treat others, and how much we rely on this shit.
one person's villain is another person's hero.
I imagine if they would be named and shamed, they would get huge contracts in companies like oracle.
"ChatGPT, generate a blog post that packages an ad for my service that competes with Google by harvesting HN's latent anti-Google rage."
Given all the negative comments here - what is anyone's alternate solution for AI-driven fraudulent activity?
CAPTCHAs are increasingly ineffective. Services are either going to go offline or implement some kind of system like this. PII like credit cards or SSNs aren't enough because those are regularly stolen.
So where do things go? Fewer services and infinite fraud?
Captchas were never effective. It’s an arms race to the bottom.