If this is run anything like the CPP, it will underperform both the market and their own benchmarks yet lead to executives awarding themselves huge bonuses.
Over the last decade (and even prior to that) CPPIB has been the best performing fund of its kind. National pension funds have different risk tolerances and investment guidelines that someone's personal portfolio or a family office.
Thanks to CPPIB, Canada does not have have a giant unfunded pension liability (unlike our neighbors to the south). It has been an enormous success story.
Yes, far better than how the UK runs its state pension system.
The Australians seem to have the best model overall though. Mandatory payments in to private investments has made them very wealthy.
The UK system takes the national insurance contributions of workers but doesn’t invest them in anything on behalf of the individual. So despite decades of payments you technically have nothing at the end and survive on the goodwill of the government and current taxpayers. That works right now because of the population pyramid.
This is a great way to sidestep the political process to fund popular projects. The political constraints will ensure returns are middling, so unless they subsidize with tax breaks on dividend income I think it would be a poor commercial investment.
Whether its perfect or not, it almost has to be better than the current status quo.
How are you going to have a Sovereign Wealth Fund when you're in debt ~300% to GDP?
Are they going to fund their "wealth" with debt?
This is an oxymoron.
You aren't "rich" if you have $1M and you owe $4M. You're a con-man living a lie that will crush you eventually.
Norway gets to have a wealth fund because they have a small population with a massive amount of oil revenue, and they aren't run by morons.
Canada only produces about 2x as much oil as Norway, but it's got 10x the population. Sorry, you can't all be rich like Norwegians unless you start pumping 5x more oil.
Things like this should be laughed off the world stage.
The parent comment just says it'll perform similar to how past similarly-shaped things performed, without saying what that past performance is. If that implies pessimism, that's not HN's fault.
One of the biggest challenges is finding investable projects these days. If they put this money in as a hold to time projects well than could be a good future asset for Canada. If it ends up actually being more of a jobs production vehicle for political gain then probably less successful.
There are multiple types of sovereign wealth fund associated with taxes on resource extraction. The type you see in Norway is used to shelter the economic diversity, currency, and labor force from the steamrolling impact of the extractive industry. The type you see in Saudi Arabia, which has no such diversity and where basically all employment is tied to oil through few degrees of separation, is basically a slush fund for long-term infrastructure projects that would not otherwise be approved because of their size in relation to the secular economy, whether those are profit-generating enterprises like harbors or not-for-profit ones like roads.
Both aim to take today's windfall and spend it on something other than hookers and blow.
Norway still does have some totally unjustifiable passion projects, like the coastal highway it's building, but it's doing this from general funds to keep the wealth fund separately managed as a giant pile of investment money that just happens to belong to an investor called 'Norway', while in Saudi Arabia it is an instrument of policy.
I think the thesis is it's not solely about returns. Get a 7% return investing a dollar domestically, plus add a taxable dollar to economy (and some recurring benefit to tax base) beats getting a 9% one-time return investing internationally.
If I understand democracies, the private sector get easy access to credit via the creation of debt. You win you win. You win we lose. but also get money invested on behalf of the tax payer.
I believe wealth taxes (really, wealth restitution) should go into sovereign wealth funds - not least as then the public can see how that money is working for them, and so support the continuance and expansion of such taxes.
Historically, this just ends up with Toronto and Montreal (and to a more limited extent, Vancouver) treating the rest of the country as a resource colony. The pretense that consent of the governed is equally geographically distributed is, naturally, very useful to you.
If you do that again, as you did in the '60s, Canada will only be Toronto and Montreal.
Usually a sovereign wealth fund is funded by excess profits, like Norway for example. In this case, it's being seeded by $25 billion dollars of debt. Can anyone more financially gifted explain how this is any different from, well, regular government spending and money printing?
Yea really. Feels like a bit of a communications exercise and effort to create arms length distance from the Federal government and spending on major projects.
Now it's not the Federal government and taxpayers propping up the oil industry by buying yet another oil pipeline, but rather a "sovereign wealth fund" (funded by Canadian taxpayers).
Yeah and like, if they want to use it for infrastructure, mining, and LNG development, isn't that at odds with retail investors who require more liquidity? Doesn't it require the fund to either hold massive cash reserves to manage redemptions or rely on government bailouts if retail sentiment sours before projects mature?
To me it sounds less like a "sovereign wealth fund" and more like a domestic infrastructure bank wrapped in populist messaging. I expect plenty of boomers to invest to "stick it to Trump", elbows up!
>Usually a sovereign wealth fund is funded by excess profits, like Norway for example.
If Canada ran resources like Norway does, it would have an enormous "excess profit". Norway's royalty rates and "profits" are dramatically higher than Canada where decades of American psyops fooled a bunch of very foolish people that the primary purpose of Canada is to ensure maximum profits for US orgs.
But really, international economics is just mostly made up, and if enough people go along with it then it's as real as real can be.
If this is run anything like the CPP, it will underperform both the market and their own benchmarks yet lead to executives awarding themselves huge bonuses.
That seems fine as long as they can show lower volatility than market while still being close in return?
Did they?
Why does it matter if volatility is lower than the market?
Future payments in the short term are covered by inflows.
You might as well maximize the returns now so that in the future when it's not covered by inflows you've acrewed a larger return.
> Future payments in the short term are covered by inflows.
is that similar to the Ponzi scheme pattern, though?
No lol
https://youtu.be/DQgqEFOc894?t=267
Over the last decade (and even prior to that) CPPIB has been the best performing fund of its kind. National pension funds have different risk tolerances and investment guidelines that someone's personal portfolio or a family office.
Thanks to CPPIB, Canada does not have have a giant unfunded pension liability (unlike our neighbors to the south). It has been an enormous success story.
Yes, far better than how the UK runs its state pension system.
The Australians seem to have the best model overall though. Mandatory payments in to private investments has made them very wealthy.
The UK system takes the national insurance contributions of workers but doesn’t invest them in anything on behalf of the individual. So despite decades of payments you technically have nothing at the end and survive on the goodwill of the government and current taxpayers. That works right now because of the population pyramid.
Canada definitely has a better system than that.
different risk profile
This is a great way to sidestep the political process to fund popular projects. The political constraints will ensure returns are middling, so unless they subsidize with tax breaks on dividend income I think it would be a poor commercial investment.
Whether its perfect or not, it almost has to be better than the current status quo.
How are you going to have a Sovereign Wealth Fund when you're in debt ~300% to GDP?
Are they going to fund their "wealth" with debt?
This is an oxymoron.
You aren't "rich" if you have $1M and you owe $4M. You're a con-man living a lie that will crush you eventually.
Norway gets to have a wealth fund because they have a small population with a massive amount of oil revenue, and they aren't run by morons.
Canada only produces about 2x as much oil as Norway, but it's got 10x the population. Sorry, you can't all be rich like Norwegians unless you start pumping 5x more oil.
Things like this should be laughed off the world stage.
We live in an upside down world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Columbia_Resources_Inv...
Hopefully turns out better than BCRIC.
laudable goal. I suspect it will end up like most other Canadian procurement projects.
also why all the love for Canadian Pacific rail?
>also why all the love for Canadian Pacific rail?
The Canadian Pacific rail connected the country east to west, was a major milestone in the country's history: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Canadian_Pacifi...>
Why is HN so pessimistic?
The parent comment just says it'll perform similar to how past similarly-shaped things performed, without saying what that past performance is. If that implies pessimism, that's not HN's fault.
Give me a break.
Is setting expectations based on track record considered pessimism?
Incessant nit picking, negativity and doubt casting is my issue.
And Canada is unrecognizable these days. Why should I think past performance is indicative of future success?
As a Canadian I see little reason for optimism
You're right, it is unrecognisable, and past performance is not indicative of future success. It will be much worse than past performance.
Sorry, not optimistic enough I suppose :(
One of the biggest challenges is finding investable projects these days. If they put this money in as a hold to time projects well than could be a good future asset for Canada. If it ends up actually being more of a jobs production vehicle for political gain then probably less successful.
Doesn't that has the problem of over exposing canadians to canada economics from an enormous an investment perspective?
I guess it benefits my kids though
There are multiple types of sovereign wealth fund associated with taxes on resource extraction. The type you see in Norway is used to shelter the economic diversity, currency, and labor force from the steamrolling impact of the extractive industry. The type you see in Saudi Arabia, which has no such diversity and where basically all employment is tied to oil through few degrees of separation, is basically a slush fund for long-term infrastructure projects that would not otherwise be approved because of their size in relation to the secular economy, whether those are profit-generating enterprises like harbors or not-for-profit ones like roads.
Both aim to take today's windfall and spend it on something other than hookers and blow.
Norway still does have some totally unjustifiable passion projects, like the coastal highway it's building, but it's doing this from general funds to keep the wealth fund separately managed as a giant pile of investment money that just happens to belong to an investor called 'Norway', while in Saudi Arabia it is an instrument of policy.
I think the thesis is it's not solely about returns. Get a 7% return investing a dollar domestically, plus add a taxable dollar to economy (and some recurring benefit to tax base) beats getting a 9% one-time return investing internationally.
A sovereign wealth fund requires surpluses to be run.
This is not a wealth fund at all. This is a debt fund. It doesnt even try to hide the debt that's drowning the federal government.
We are borrowing money to play the stock market.
If I understand democracies, the private sector get easy access to credit via the creation of debt. You win you win. You win we lose. but also get money invested on behalf of the tax payer.
The market economy is brilliant.
I believe wealth taxes (really, wealth restitution) should go into sovereign wealth funds - not least as then the public can see how that money is working for them, and so support the continuance and expansion of such taxes.
Agreed, we should also nationalise resource extraction and put the funds in there. Canadian resources should be for Canadians.
No.
Historically, this just ends up with Toronto and Montreal (and to a more limited extent, Vancouver) treating the rest of the country as a resource colony. The pretense that consent of the governed is equally geographically distributed is, naturally, very useful to you.
If you do that again, as you did in the '60s, Canada will only be Toronto and Montreal.
> this just ends up with Toronto and Montréal (and to a more limited extent, Vancouver)
So, where most Canadians live?
There’s a reconciliation dimension that complicates that framing, at least in BC.
More importantly - revenues from the funds should be used for reducing income taxes. That's how you get broad-based public support for wealth taxes.
Usually a sovereign wealth fund is funded by excess profits, like Norway for example. In this case, it's being seeded by $25 billion dollars of debt. Can anyone more financially gifted explain how this is any different from, well, regular government spending and money printing?
Yea really. Feels like a bit of a communications exercise and effort to create arms length distance from the Federal government and spending on major projects.
Now it's not the Federal government and taxpayers propping up the oil industry by buying yet another oil pipeline, but rather a "sovereign wealth fund" (funded by Canadian taxpayers).
Yeah and like, if they want to use it for infrastructure, mining, and LNG development, isn't that at odds with retail investors who require more liquidity? Doesn't it require the fund to either hold massive cash reserves to manage redemptions or rely on government bailouts if retail sentiment sours before projects mature?
To me it sounds less like a "sovereign wealth fund" and more like a domestic infrastructure bank wrapped in populist messaging. I expect plenty of boomers to invest to "stick it to Trump", elbows up!
>Usually a sovereign wealth fund is funded by excess profits, like Norway for example.
If Canada ran resources like Norway does, it would have an enormous "excess profit". Norway's royalty rates and "profits" are dramatically higher than Canada where decades of American psyops fooled a bunch of very foolish people that the primary purpose of Canada is to ensure maximum profits for US orgs.
But really, international economics is just mostly made up, and if enough people go along with it then it's as real as real can be.
Only in that it's in a private equity fund, not one-time spending.