I would have expected better of HN. I agree that wealth and power accumulation are a problem. But the conclusion obviously isn't to have everyone forcibly DIE. If anything, this is an argument to make longevity more accessible.
The article is heavily biased against the evil tech billionaires. So much so, that it has to construct a false image about Bryan Johnson. His "proprietary longevity routine" is actually fully public. The most important parts aren't some expensive surgeries but 1) regular sleep 2) healthy food 3) exercise.
Either you want everyone to live as long as possible, or you want people to die. And if the tech elites scare you that much, remember that longevity protocols protect against death by aging, _not_ assassinations.
If they could increase their lifespan by a single day but it required getting another person killed, they would make the trade. And again, and again, and again.
Very few wouldn't, unless very much driven by their religion to fetish death.
Who wouldn't select a part of the population they find unsaveable, say evil genocidal billionaires, and sacrifice them for extending their own lifespan + improving how they believe the world should be? Win-win.
> Very few wouldn't, unless very much driven by their religion to fetish death.
I feel sad that you seemingly have met more people who lack compassion and empathy than ones who have it. Personally, I don't know (or "hang out" rather maybe) many people who'd sacrifice anyone's life just to live a day longer, and I don't think that's a useful default view to have of people, most people I've met don't want to hurt others. Most people will hurt others if they can avoid getting hurt themselves by doing so, but that doesn't mean those same people would sacrifice someone's life to get another day.
Gonna go out on a limb here and say that old age and dying are actually good, and that many of the problems in Western society are due to people living too long and holding onto power longer than they should / not passing on power and resources to younger generations.
I am sure people said the same 100 years back when they probably thought living beyond say 60 was too much. I know that in poorer countries due to high infant mortality rate and other issues just reaching 60 was a big milestone for the average person. The bigger question is how will the existing financial system adapt for such a scenario if even 10% of the population manages to extend from 82 to 100+
50% of highly educated women in certain countries are expected to live to 100+ years old according to some demographers, although others believe there's genuine biological limits making this unlikely (they still believe a substantial amount will reach it).
People have been reaching the age of 100 since antiquity, reaching 110 probably happened hundreds of years ago as well. Which just shows the biological limit hasn't been extended just that there's more people reaching it.
> I am sure people said the same 100 years back when they probably thought living beyond say 60 was too much.
At least in Western cultures, 70 was long considered the "natural" lifespan for humans. E.g., Dante's Divine Comedy takes place when the main character is at the literal midpoint of his life, 35.
So you end up with octogenarians in power? No thanks.
I am glad that in my country people retire and fuck off to spend their last days on holiday. Spending their accumulated wealth has become a major engine of the national economy.
If anything, we’ve seen that older generations of leadership can’t keep up with changing technology and fail to adapt to massive upheavals.
In times of rapid technological development, the old are not wise. They are reactionary and cannot adapt. Their brain stopped developing before the internet. To expect them to make adequate decisions for the current landscape is to expect them to understand a world they simply weren’t built for.
Well, before we figure out who to send to the old age camps to be ground up and turned into McDonald's and Legos... first let's get some nice "age discrimination" laws in place preventing running for government office after age 67.
Looking at heads of states in non-western countries I'm not sure why you think it's a western thing. African countries got multiple 90+ year olds as head of state for example.
Hey now, don't crush my dreams of biological immortality! That being said, if the average lifespan continues to increase then we will have to consider rethinking the current social order. Right now we place seniority/experience at the top of what we consider socially useful in a person, but it's already clear that the effects of gerontocracy are hurting the average person in the US and other countries. Should these people automatically be considered the wisest and most socially responsible? Is your 60s really the time to be leading, or should it be when you're younger? Lower neuroplasticity, snowballing wealth, more dependents are all inhibitions to solid decision making that get worse as people grow older. We will have to address this as our lifespans continue to grow.
The finite lifespan is an integral part of the earth's ecosystem for the reasons you specify. The planet only has so many resources and life has only so many experiences. As I get older, my perspective changes on what is important. If I was stuck perpetually in my prime, I would think I would get bored. If you're dating someone much younger than you, what do you have in common? I'm glad we're only here for a little while. Change is good.
This hardfought wisdom has served the planet well for a couple billion years. What are the odds the Silicon Valley tech-bros have thought this through?
The Western world lives under democracy. Power is held by the population at large. If it appears that the older population is holding more power, that is simply because they have more time, being retired, to exert their democratic duty.
I think blaming America's problems on gerontocracy is correlation-causation confusion. The reason we have a gerontocracy is that ordinary rank-and-file voters are too cynical and individualistic to participate in politics.
Funnily enough a lot of these 'boomer' haters love to pretend the silent generation or the greatest generation were so much better. I believe a lot of this cynicism and individualism is caused by political decisions by these generations. Decisions like subsidizing the 30 year mortgage and urban design plans made it more difficult to have a 'real community', one which you would engage in politics for.
The power balance of local politics and national politics also got changed with TV and the internet, things which would've happened regardless of how good a 'generation' is.
ps) could care less about their “resources”. western boomer is proud and lead poisoned and is destroying the world and will insist on doing so until his last breath.
Living forever sounds awful. For one, I am extremely curious what happens when I die. Without death, life becomes a hollow shell, or at least I imagine it would, as you would lack urgency.
It is a clinical term, you are arguing over semantics. Cardiopulmonary death to be specific. My point is: no one knows, not you, not me, and not my dog.
An interesting fictional book that has this idea as part of the story is Altered Carbon by Richard K. Morgan. Imagine if Elon musk and the other ultra-wealthy could live forever and they become even more out-of-touch with reality as the centuries roll on...
In the book almost anyone that has lived could live forever but that could never happen with limited resources/space so only the ultra-wealthy are able to.
I'd skip the tv show. Also, the books (it's a series) seem to be unfinished? I could be wrong, it's been so long since I read it but it seems like some sub-story about extinct aliens wasn't finished.
I don't know... I read the books so long ago and there are still things in my minds eye that I can picture from it, whereas with the tv show the only thing I remember is the naked sword fight.
elon is at least barely tolerable despitre being clearly POS, but maybe he has just pressure from stocks/companies he represents. Think more in the line of trump or putin, forever.
Such a person, upon becoming say potus, would on day 1 dismantle any option to be removed from power and basically did what trump is doing otherwise, and/or worse.
I keep saying this over and over - for greater good of humanity, we should be shooting these immortality scientists, all of them, regardless of horrible it sounds. 1000s vs hundreds of billions.
There is no conceivable way this will end in anything but catastrophe for mankind. One could theoretise that there could be Leto II Atreides type of situation (mankind needs to experience absolutely horrible things for millenia to go on a path which is overall better in extremely long term), but I am not holding my breath. We could also just die from our stupidity, and this is one prime example of it thats anyway still far in future.
We need to be at least multiplanetary civilization before achieving this, ideally in multiple solar systems so any catastrophe is not absolute.
Class based 'revolutions' are made up of a bunch of idiots who would happily destroy everything while being lead by somebody even worse who is qualitatively identical to the people they despise. They have proven that repeatedly.
I don’t know. I kind of like a social safety net, unemployment insurance, limits to the work week, free education for all future adults, paid holidays, mass voting, multiethnic democracy, product liability laws, etc. Our modern society owes a lot to the hundreds of years of struggle to empower hard work and education over inherited wealth.
Another good book exploring this idea of not dying is Pandora's Star by Peter Hamilton. Only in this book almost everyone has access to the technology by paying into a rejuvenation fund instead of a retirement one as we have today. It is a pretty realistic exploration of the consequences and benefits of such technology. Good food for thoughts.
I would have expected better of HN. I agree that wealth and power accumulation are a problem. But the conclusion obviously isn't to have everyone forcibly DIE. If anything, this is an argument to make longevity more accessible.
The article is heavily biased against the evil tech billionaires. So much so, that it has to construct a false image about Bryan Johnson. His "proprietary longevity routine" is actually fully public. The most important parts aren't some expensive surgeries but 1) regular sleep 2) healthy food 3) exercise.
Either you want everyone to live as long as possible, or you want people to die. And if the tech elites scare you that much, remember that longevity protocols protect against death by aging, _not_ assassinations.
If they could increase their lifespan by a single day but it required getting another person killed, they would make the trade. And again, and again, and again.
Reminiscent of Warbreaker by Brandon Sanderson
Very few wouldn't, unless very much driven by their religion to fetish death.
Who wouldn't select a part of the population they find unsaveable, say evil genocidal billionaires, and sacrifice them for extending their own lifespan + improving how they believe the world should be? Win-win.
> Very few wouldn't, unless very much driven by their religion to fetish death.
I feel sad that you seemingly have met more people who lack compassion and empathy than ones who have it. Personally, I don't know (or "hang out" rather maybe) many people who'd sacrifice anyone's life just to live a day longer, and I don't think that's a useful default view to have of people, most people I've met don't want to hurt others. Most people will hurt others if they can avoid getting hurt themselves by doing so, but that doesn't mean those same people would sacrifice someone's life to get another day.
Though many would sacrifice an intelligent animals like a pig or dolphin and they’d do this optionally
I would not because it’s evil.
Standard fare to excuse powerful people who do actual harm with something about human nature.
So who am I to judge? I have impurities in my heart because I dislike people who cause harm. Best wait for the saints to weigh in.
The evil genocidal billionaires will be the ones killing to extend their lifespan. Not the other way around.
Gonna go out on a limb here and say that old age and dying are actually good, and that many of the problems in Western society are due to people living too long and holding onto power longer than they should / not passing on power and resources to younger generations.
> longer than they should
Just great. And who is to decide how long is "too long"? You?
I am sure people said the same 100 years back when they probably thought living beyond say 60 was too much. I know that in poorer countries due to high infant mortality rate and other issues just reaching 60 was a big milestone for the average person. The bigger question is how will the existing financial system adapt for such a scenario if even 10% of the population manages to extend from 82 to 100+
50% of highly educated women in certain countries are expected to live to 100+ years old according to some demographers, although others believe there's genuine biological limits making this unlikely (they still believe a substantial amount will reach it).
People have been reaching the age of 100 since antiquity, reaching 110 probably happened hundreds of years ago as well. Which just shows the biological limit hasn't been extended just that there's more people reaching it.
> I am sure people said the same 100 years back when they probably thought living beyond say 60 was too much.
At least in Western cultures, 70 was long considered the "natural" lifespan for humans. E.g., Dante's Divine Comedy takes place when the main character is at the literal midpoint of his life, 35.
AFAIK most societies historically respected the wisdom attributed to old age, and many cultures still do.
So you end up with octogenarians in power? No thanks.
I am glad that in my country people retire and fuck off to spend their last days on holiday. Spending their accumulated wealth has become a major engine of the national economy.
If anything, we’ve seen that older generations of leadership can’t keep up with changing technology and fail to adapt to massive upheavals.
In times of rapid technological development, the old are not wise. They are reactionary and cannot adapt. Their brain stopped developing before the internet. To expect them to make adequate decisions for the current landscape is to expect them to understand a world they simply weren’t built for.
I think some sort of cognitive test would be a good place to start
Term limits.
Well, before we figure out who to send to the old age camps to be ground up and turned into McDonald's and Legos... first let's get some nice "age discrimination" laws in place preventing running for government office after age 67.
Looking at heads of states in non-western countries I'm not sure why you think it's a western thing. African countries got multiple 90+ year olds as head of state for example.
Then what you're looking for is mandatory retirement ages and term limits, not condemnation to death.
Wars or pandemics like COVID-19 are more effective solutions.
You mean the ones which kill the young first? Especially the wars. "War" and "effective use of resources" are antonyms.
YES!!! Old age and dying are actually good for inherited wealth.
Hey now, don't crush my dreams of biological immortality! That being said, if the average lifespan continues to increase then we will have to consider rethinking the current social order. Right now we place seniority/experience at the top of what we consider socially useful in a person, but it's already clear that the effects of gerontocracy are hurting the average person in the US and other countries. Should these people automatically be considered the wisest and most socially responsible? Is your 60s really the time to be leading, or should it be when you're younger? Lower neuroplasticity, snowballing wealth, more dependents are all inhibitions to solid decision making that get worse as people grow older. We will have to address this as our lifespans continue to grow.
The finite lifespan is an integral part of the earth's ecosystem for the reasons you specify. The planet only has so many resources and life has only so many experiences. As I get older, my perspective changes on what is important. If I was stuck perpetually in my prime, I would think I would get bored. If you're dating someone much younger than you, what do you have in common? I'm glad we're only here for a little while. Change is good.
This hardfought wisdom has served the planet well for a couple billion years. What are the odds the Silicon Valley tech-bros have thought this through?
> holding onto power longer than they should
The Western world lives under democracy. Power is held by the population at large. If it appears that the older population is holding more power, that is simply because they have more time, being retired, to exert their democratic duty.
I think blaming America's problems on gerontocracy is correlation-causation confusion. The reason we have a gerontocracy is that ordinary rank-and-file voters are too cynical and individualistic to participate in politics.
Funnily enough a lot of these 'boomer' haters love to pretend the silent generation or the greatest generation were so much better. I believe a lot of this cynicism and individualism is caused by political decisions by these generations. Decisions like subsidizing the 30 year mortgage and urban design plans made it more difficult to have a 'real community', one which you would engage in politics for.
The power balance of local politics and national politics also got changed with TV and the internet, things which would've happened regardless of how good a 'generation' is.
In many wealthy countries the old are literally outnumbering the young so it wouldn't matter if everyone under the age of 40 turned up to vote.
Nations haven't tried to implement mass immigration because they are woke- it's a last desperate gamble.
day of the pillow
ps) could care less about their “resources”. western boomer is proud and lead poisoned and is destroying the world and will insist on doing so until his last breath.
They could make progress on cancer, but the way things are going they'll have to learn how to survive a guillotine as well.
Wealth and power accumulate. They’d end up owning everything.
Living forever sounds awful. For one, I am extremely curious what happens when I die. Without death, life becomes a hollow shell, or at least I imagine it would, as you would lack urgency.
I’ll answer that question for you for free. Here’s what happens:
I medically died a couple years back. I don’t remember a thing, so perhaps you are right. Still curious.
The concept of “medically died” is kind of ridiculous. Are you alive? Then you weren’t dead.
It is a clinical term, you are arguing over semantics. Cardiopulmonary death to be specific. My point is: no one knows, not you, not me, and not my dog.
Why rich and powerful? Everyone, no?
They’re the only ones who would be able to afford it.
This is an argument against all technological progress.
We don't even know how to get someone to be 130, but sure, let's waste time talking about this.
Hah, so many science fiction books with this premise. Another one: "Drunkards walk" by Frederick Pohl, 1961.
An interesting fictional book that has this idea as part of the story is Altered Carbon by Richard K. Morgan. Imagine if Elon musk and the other ultra-wealthy could live forever and they become even more out-of-touch with reality as the centuries roll on...
In the book almost anyone that has lived could live forever but that could never happen with limited resources/space so only the ultra-wealthy are able to.
I'd skip the tv show. Also, the books (it's a series) seem to be unfinished? I could be wrong, it's been so long since I read it but it seems like some sub-story about extinct aliens wasn't finished.
The tv show is actually really good from someone who did not read the books. It is well done.
I saw the show first. I like them both. They’re wildly different.
I don't know... I read the books so long ago and there are still things in my minds eye that I can picture from it, whereas with the tv show the only thing I remember is the naked sword fight.
elon is at least barely tolerable despitre being clearly POS, but maybe he has just pressure from stocks/companies he represents. Think more in the line of trump or putin, forever.
Such a person, upon becoming say potus, would on day 1 dismantle any option to be removed from power and basically did what trump is doing otherwise, and/or worse.
I keep saying this over and over - for greater good of humanity, we should be shooting these immortality scientists, all of them, regardless of horrible it sounds. 1000s vs hundreds of billions.
There is no conceivable way this will end in anything but catastrophe for mankind. One could theoretise that there could be Leto II Atreides type of situation (mankind needs to experience absolutely horrible things for millenia to go on a path which is overall better in extremely long term), but I am not holding my breath. We could also just die from our stupidity, and this is one prime example of it thats anyway still far in future.
We need to be at least multiplanetary civilization before achieving this, ideally in multiple solar systems so any catastrophe is not absolute.
https://archive.is/RvcQo
Altered Carbon on Netflix...
Please read ‘How to Stop Time’ by Matt Haig
It’s a beautiful short novel exploring this idea.
I vaguely recall a Heinlein novel which explored it too. Methuselah's Children maybe?
Time Enough for Love. IMHO much better than Stranger in a Strange Land.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love
> What If They Could?
Then they'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.
I was just reading about the French revolution. Not sure we should be hoping for anything like that.
They’re already at the front of the queue. Attempts to live forever will only further inflame the general population.
Class based 'revolutions' are made up of a bunch of idiots who would happily destroy everything while being lead by somebody even worse who is qualitatively identical to the people they despise. They have proven that repeatedly.
I don’t know. I kind of like a social safety net, unemployment insurance, limits to the work week, free education for all future adults, paid holidays, mass voting, multiethnic democracy, product liability laws, etc. Our modern society owes a lot to the hundreds of years of struggle to empower hard work and education over inherited wealth.
and you would be ok with an immortal class of tech overlords? history ending with one of the worst sets of ppl of our generation?
Thank God they can't buy immorality.
Another good book exploring this idea of not dying is Pandora's Star by Peter Hamilton. Only in this book almost everyone has access to the technology by paying into a rejuvenation fund instead of a retirement one as we have today. It is a pretty realistic exploration of the consequences and benefits of such technology. Good food for thoughts.
[dead]