If only hip cafes that get custom built ones knew how to pull an actual espresso shot.
New rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
Yes I’m salty about the amount of aesthetic cafes that have no idea what to do about their coffee program because all they care about is being a hip third space.
One coffee shop near me (since closed) had a Group 3 Slayer paired with a Super Jolly (but they also didn't know how to pull a decent shot).
For those unfamiliar, Slayer is (imo the best) one of the top $$$ machines and pairing it with a budget grinder is a classic sign the owner doesn't know a thing about coffee. Often the grinder is more influential than the espresso machine.
And how I mention "Group 3" that means it has three brewing heads. They were using a ~$20-30k espresso machine paired with a run of the mill budget grinder.
Boy different world different meaning of "expensive." I'm opening a cafe in Jakarta and I'm thinking if I should get a used Super Jolly or something _cheaper_.
> New rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
The same La Marzocco that puts fake paddles on their cheaper machines when whats there is really just a button?
In my anecdotal experience of reacting to “wow this espresso is good” it’s often been a Slayer machine. It’s been a rough indicator of where to get good coffee for me.
I tend to look at the grinder and also the choice of the beans (roast level, consistency, chips). As another commenter pointed out you do occasionally get places that will buy a super fancy machine but have no idea what to do with it.
It's rarer to spend loads on a fancy grinder if you don't know what you're doing.
La Marzocco has such brand recognition that a lot of newbie coffee shops would buy one, but people who buy a more niche commercial machine like a Slayer or a Synesso probably know what they are doing. Still, there's nothing wrong with the machine itself and there are plenty of really great coffee shops with a La Marzocco.
Unless your plan is to eliminate La Marzocco machines from the secondary market by rapidly buying up the old machines, at a substantial premium, and leasing all future machines I'm pretty sure you'd run into difficulty implementing any sort of mandatory certification requirement.
As unfeasible as the original post is, I do empathize. There is a trend of expensive coffee places spending all this money on everything but training the actual employees.
Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
I have (and love) my little Cafelat Robot [1]. It is small, draws no electricity, and relies upon my practiced hands to push preheated water through the coffee puck. There is nothing to get between me and the experience of making great espresso. I can feel the pressure, I can hear the stream of espresso, I can effortlessly adjust the flow in response to what the extraction is telling my senses.
Instead of a button press, pulling a shot is now a tactile experience that engages the senses. When the pull is done, I am primed to enjoy the results.
Yes, before getting an expensive commercial-style machine, consider what’s on the other end of the spectrum. Full manual has its benefits, both practical and aesthetic.
Plus, the money you will save will let you buy a better grinder. And that makes all the difference.
Moka pots don't make espresso though. True espresso requires ~9 bars of pressure to make. Moka pots can create at max 1.5 bars (though optimally it would hover between 0.5 and 1 bar).
So while they make very good, rich, full-bodied coffee, it's just not espresso.
Before spending money on a good grinder, make sure you have access to reasonable good quality / priced beans in your area! Otherwise your OPEX really starts to go through the roof for shipping coffee (At least my area)
Interesting, IME it's all beans. At my go-to place, the baristas are pretty bad but the two owners are super dedicated to roasting their own beans, you can always see them putting a lot of time and effort into it. Result is much better than places where the baristas are skilled but they use cheap pre-roasted bulk beans.
To take it to an extreme, I doubt the best barista in the world is going to get a good shot out of the default Starbucks beans. But maybe I'm wrong!
You're not wrong, bad beans are bad beans. But on the other hand, no matter how fancy single origin perfectly roasted beans you have, a crappy barista will most likely pull a terrible shot.
I’ve used cafetière off-and-on in the past but felt that I could never get the pressure high enough and the amount short enough. You’re saying that the Brikka produces enough pressure for an espresso? Is this something specific to the Brikka or will any Bialetti stovetop do? Can I use half or 1/3 as much water as you? Cafetière seem to have a minimum lower bound but I like it short short.
It is specific to the Brikka. They put a pressure valve in the column. The coffee must reach a certain pressure before it starts to flow.
You may try whatever amount of water you want... just don't let it burn in place!
There is a subtle balancing act between the quantity of coffee in the basket (how much headspace you keep) and the amount of water ( a ratio of 10:1 with the coffee -- before making the coffee -- yields good results for me).
So ... if you put less water, that means less coffee... which means more empty space in the basket, which modifies the dynamics.
Pro tip: use as little heat as possible to get the water to a gentle boil. Otherwise you might burn the coffee in the basket. Bad.
Okay very interesting. Thanks for the detailed answer. I looked into it a bit more[1], it sounds like the valve is producing 1.5 bar. A very nice stovetop for a moka, but probably not a good fit for me.
Two different machines, they make very different coffee.
The brikka is exceptional, if you like espresso.
I have a Brikka "Induction" with a stainless steel machined bottom part. Today I looked and apparently they decided to skimp and only offer the aluminum (non induction compatible) version. Pity.
I love my La Marzocco Linea Micra. It’s exceptionally well-built and feels like an Apple product in its simplicity. The only downside is the app you have to use to use the programmed automated backflush.
But the user experience is remarkably simple. Turn the knob left to start the flow of water, turn the other way to stop. Move the dial to steam/froth milk. Fantastic default water pressure and even better tasting coffee. It’s a machine that will last a decade if not longer.
They must have machines that are not app-enabled right?
I sort of understand why their consumer machines would have that crap but I imagine that plenty of commercial places buying a $20k+ machine for a cafe that's supposed to run for 40 years would not accept having an app involved in maintenance.
Go into a service shop and see what they think of the computerised La Marsocco. Great coffee, amazing looking machine. But servicing…
I got awfully close to getting one then went for an e61. I’m very sure the coffee isn’t as good. I’m very sure the machine will have parts for a long time - it’s been 60 years so far.
A decade seems good to you? We’re still just talking about heat and pressure, well-understood problems. There’s no excuse for a machine like this not to outlive the original owner. Anything else is planned obsolescence or a manufacturing defect.
I wasn't planning on buying one, but I'll add this to the list of app enabled coffee tech I refuse to buy. As someone who's blind I'm getting really tired of app enabled coffee equipment with no open source integrations or protocol documentation. Fellow also doesn't appear to make any effort to make there apps accessible. They have had there Aiden out for over a year and I still don't see any notes about accessibility in there app update. I'm not going to buy one and use the home assistant integration since that could break at any time. Luckily I'm more of a coffee drinker instead of espresso so the Ratio Four works well enough for single cups and half pots.
I feel like this is where narrative/marketing does something independent of actual results. I mean, I'm sure a good engineer can figure out the fluid dynamics/pressures/seals/filtration reasonably easily.
Vancouver also has a pretty nice La Marzocco showroom, the occasionally organize events, and can always go by to view the very nice machines and if you ask politely you'll get an amazing espresso
Somehow, the Bay Area, which is full of really rich coffee drinkers, doesn't have a La Marzocco showroom or even any big coffee equipment shop (Seattle Coffee Gear in Stanford shopping mall in Palo Alto closed a couple years ago).
Isn’t Kees van der Westen the ferrari of coffee machines?!
From TFA:
It’s why Sean Henry, the owner of Houndstooth Coffee in Dallas and Austin, Texas, was willing to drive across the state in 2009 to pick up a limited-edition La Marzocco machine that the company made in partnership with the Dutch designer Kees van der Westen.
I moved on from the Sylvia a long time ago. I just love its story (made from the parts bin as a gift for suppliers).
The size is attractive and it’s a little monster in n terms of bang-for-buck. I made ~15k coffees on it and it had one cheap service before it was elevated to ‘The Shelf’ with an Atomic espresso maker.
The Dedelonri I bought in Vietnam for $20. It’s a Chinese fake of a budget machine. But it has insanely high pressure and produces way better coffee than anyone finds reasonable.
But secretly, I think it’s all just the super fresh high quality beans that you can buy in Vietnam. They cultivate a regional variant of arabica in their highlands. And even using a standard Bialetti Moca cup produces exceptional results with that coffee.
Since the thread is full of coffee enthusiasts: I recently stepped outside my espresso-only routine and started appreciating V60 and Origami pour-overs. It's been great realizing how much depth there is outside of espresso. Where does the rest of HN crowd land on pour-overs?
If only hip cafes that get custom built ones knew how to pull an actual espresso shot.
New rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
Yes I’m salty about the amount of aesthetic cafes that have no idea what to do about their coffee program because all they care about is being a hip third space.
One coffee shop near me (since closed) had a Group 3 Slayer paired with a Super Jolly (but they also didn't know how to pull a decent shot).
For those unfamiliar, Slayer is (imo the best) one of the top $$$ machines and pairing it with a budget grinder is a classic sign the owner doesn't know a thing about coffee. Often the grinder is more influential than the espresso machine.
And how I mention "Group 3" that means it has three brewing heads. They were using a ~$20-30k espresso machine paired with a run of the mill budget grinder.
Boy different world different meaning of "expensive." I'm opening a cafe in Jakarta and I'm thinking if I should get a used Super Jolly or something _cheaper_.
> New rule should be La Marzocco judges every barista on their skills before being able to flip a paddle, which requires a bespoke NFC card linked to their certification.
The same La Marzocco that puts fake paddles on their cheaper machines when whats there is really just a button?
In my anecdotal experience of reacting to “wow this espresso is good” it’s often been a Slayer machine. It’s been a rough indicator of where to get good coffee for me.
I tend to look at the grinder and also the choice of the beans (roast level, consistency, chips). As another commenter pointed out you do occasionally get places that will buy a super fancy machine but have no idea what to do with it. It's rarer to spend loads on a fancy grinder if you don't know what you're doing.
La Marzocco has such brand recognition that a lot of newbie coffee shops would buy one, but people who buy a more niche commercial machine like a Slayer or a Synesso probably know what they are doing. Still, there's nothing wrong with the machine itself and there are plenty of really great coffee shops with a La Marzocco.
Unless your plan is to eliminate La Marzocco machines from the secondary market by rapidly buying up the old machines, at a substantial premium, and leasing all future machines I'm pretty sure you'd run into difficulty implementing any sort of mandatory certification requirement.
As unfeasible as the original post is, I do empathize. There is a trend of expensive coffee places spending all this money on everything but training the actual employees.
All that effort to serve lemon juice. Sigh...
Before you spend many thousands of dollars on a machine better suited to a coffee shop, consider getting a minimalist lever machine.
I have (and love) my little Cafelat Robot [1]. It is small, draws no electricity, and relies upon my practiced hands to push preheated water through the coffee puck. There is nothing to get between me and the experience of making great espresso. I can feel the pressure, I can hear the stream of espresso, I can effortlessly adjust the flow in response to what the extraction is telling my senses.
Instead of a button press, pulling a shot is now a tactile experience that engages the senses. When the pull is done, I am primed to enjoy the results.
Yes, before getting an expensive commercial-style machine, consider what’s on the other end of the spectrum. Full manual has its benefits, both practical and aesthetic.
Plus, the money you will save will let you buy a better grinder. And that makes all the difference.
[1] http://www.cafelat.com/robot.html
I have the same and love it. Another bonus of the Cafelat is no microplastics in my hot coffee. :)
Or just get a Moka pot, which is what most Italians use at home anyway. You can get a decent one for $30-50.
Moka pots don't make espresso though. True espresso requires ~9 bars of pressure to make. Moka pots can create at max 1.5 bars (though optimally it would hover between 0.5 and 1 bar).
So while they make very good, rich, full-bodied coffee, it's just not espresso.
>consider getting a minimalist lever machine
Before spending money on an espresso machine, make sure you have a good grinder first.
Before spending money on a good grinder, make sure you have access to reasonable good quality / priced beans in your area! Otherwise your OPEX really starts to go through the roof for shipping coffee (At least my area)
>make sure you have access to reasonable good quality / priced beans in your area
Why? In which country can't you buy high-quality hipster single-origin beans online?
I used to have a decent espresso machine at home, and try , from time to time, supposedly "barista quality" espressos from cafes around here.
I agree wholeheartedly with those who say the coffee beans, the grinder and the barista are more important than the machine.
Nowadays at home I use a very simple Bialetti Brikka with exactly 200 ml of water and 20 g of coffee. God shots every single time.
Interesting, IME it's all beans. At my go-to place, the baristas are pretty bad but the two owners are super dedicated to roasting their own beans, you can always see them putting a lot of time and effort into it. Result is much better than places where the baristas are skilled but they use cheap pre-roasted bulk beans.
To take it to an extreme, I doubt the best barista in the world is going to get a good shot out of the default Starbucks beans. But maybe I'm wrong!
You're not wrong, bad beans are bad beans. But on the other hand, no matter how fancy single origin perfectly roasted beans you have, a crappy barista will most likely pull a terrible shot.
Beans can't compensate for the lack of skill.
That can't really be called a shot anymore tho, you're not even in a lungo territory if you're pulling a 200ml shot.
Or do you mean an Americano? Are you adding water afterwards?
Americano? I would not touch that with a ten-foot pole.
No... no water. The Brikka has a pressure valve and the 200 ml of water yield about 125-150 ml of coffee.
You might call it a double lungo, but with a bit of crema (yep) and no acidity or sour taste. Just sweet coffee with nice chocolate notes.
I use coffee beans from Papua New Guinea, roasted locally at the coffee shop.
I’ve used cafetière off-and-on in the past but felt that I could never get the pressure high enough and the amount short enough. You’re saying that the Brikka produces enough pressure for an espresso? Is this something specific to the Brikka or will any Bialetti stovetop do? Can I use half or 1/3 as much water as you? Cafetière seem to have a minimum lower bound but I like it short short.
It is specific to the Brikka. They put a pressure valve in the column. The coffee must reach a certain pressure before it starts to flow.
You may try whatever amount of water you want... just don't let it burn in place!
There is a subtle balancing act between the quantity of coffee in the basket (how much headspace you keep) and the amount of water ( a ratio of 10:1 with the coffee -- before making the coffee -- yields good results for me).
So ... if you put less water, that means less coffee... which means more empty space in the basket, which modifies the dynamics.
Pro tip: use as little heat as possible to get the water to a gentle boil. Otherwise you might burn the coffee in the basket. Bad.
In short, you will have to experiment...
Okay very interesting. Thanks for the detailed answer. I looked into it a bit more[1], it sounds like the valve is producing 1.5 bar. A very nice stovetop for a moka, but probably not a good fit for me.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Coffee/comments/15zabe/does_the_bia...
How do you like the brikka vs the classic?
Two different machines, they make very different coffee.
The brikka is exceptional, if you like espresso.
I have a Brikka "Induction" with a stainless steel machined bottom part. Today I looked and apparently they decided to skimp and only offer the aluminum (non induction compatible) version. Pity.
I love my La Marzocco Linea Micra. It’s exceptionally well-built and feels like an Apple product in its simplicity. The only downside is the app you have to use to use the programmed automated backflush.
But the user experience is remarkably simple. Turn the knob left to start the flow of water, turn the other way to stop. Move the dial to steam/froth milk. Fantastic default water pressure and even better tasting coffee. It’s a machine that will last a decade if not longer.
They must have machines that are not app-enabled right?
I sort of understand why their consumer machines would have that crap but I imagine that plenty of commercial places buying a $20k+ machine for a cafe that's supposed to run for 40 years would not accept having an app involved in maintenance.
It’s bad.
Go into a service shop and see what they think of the computerised La Marsocco. Great coffee, amazing looking machine. But servicing…
I got awfully close to getting one then went for an e61. I’m very sure the coffee isn’t as good. I’m very sure the machine will have parts for a long time - it’s been 60 years so far.
A decade seems good to you? We’re still just talking about heat and pressure, well-understood problems. There’s no excuse for a machine like this not to outlive the original owner. Anything else is planned obsolescence or a manufacturing defect.
I wasn't planning on buying one, but I'll add this to the list of app enabled coffee tech I refuse to buy. As someone who's blind I'm getting really tired of app enabled coffee equipment with no open source integrations or protocol documentation. Fellow also doesn't appear to make any effort to make there apps accessible. They have had there Aiden out for over a year and I still don't see any notes about accessibility in there app update. I'm not going to buy one and use the home assistant integration since that could break at any time. Luckily I'm more of a coffee drinker instead of espresso so the Ratio Four works well enough for single cups and half pots.
Certainly like a apple in terms of price.
I feel like this is where narrative/marketing does something independent of actual results. I mean, I'm sure a good engineer can figure out the fluid dynamics/pressures/seals/filtration reasonably easily.
If you're ever in Florence, Italy and love coffee (and La Marzocco) do yourself a favor and visit the museum https://lamarzocco.com/mktcenter/visit-us-in-italy/
Vancouver also has a pretty nice La Marzocco showroom, the occasionally organize events, and can always go by to view the very nice machines and if you ask politely you'll get an amazing espresso
Somehow, the Bay Area, which is full of really rich coffee drinkers, doesn't have a La Marzocco showroom or even any big coffee equipment shop (Seattle Coffee Gear in Stanford shopping mall in Palo Alto closed a couple years ago).
If you're ever in Seattle you can visit the La Marzocco US headquarters and actually try out their machines.
I actually hate coffee, but I go by their building every day and the machines are very impressive looking.
Isn’t Kees van der Westen the ferrari of coffee machines?!
That's more like the Spyker of coffee machines. Incidentally I went to a random coffee shop that had a Speedster in it. It was great.
Isn’t Kees van der Westen the ferrari of coffee machines?!
From TFA:
It’s why Sean Henry, the owner of Houndstooth Coffee in Dallas and Austin, Texas, was willing to drive across the state in 2009 to pick up a limited-edition La Marzocco machine that the company made in partnership with the Dutch designer Kees van der Westen.
> The La Marzocco coffee maker has long been a sought-after classic. But used machines are now even more coveted by cafe owners and collectors.
https://archive.ph/afj75
So... what is the Corolla of espresso machines?
My Breville Bambino Plus was cheap and produces a pretty reliable shot.
The Rancilio Silvia.
https://coffeegeek.com/reviews/firstlooks/rancilio-silvia-pr...
I am being told by my local coffee geeks that it's Gaggia
I moved on from the Sylvia a long time ago. I just love its story (made from the parts bin as a gift for suppliers). The size is attractive and it’s a little monster in n terms of bang-for-buck. I made ~15k coffees on it and it had one cheap service before it was elevated to ‘The Shelf’ with an Atomic espresso maker.
I've bought Corollas for less than that ...
I’ve sold Carollas for less.
But, the milage you’ll get on a Sylvia is higher.
The Dedelonri I bought in Vietnam for $20. It’s a Chinese fake of a budget machine. But it has insanely high pressure and produces way better coffee than anyone finds reasonable.
But secretly, I think it’s all just the super fresh high quality beans that you can buy in Vietnam. They cultivate a regional variant of arabica in their highlands. And even using a standard Bialetti Moca cup produces exceptional results with that coffee.
Gaggia.
Breville Barista Express probably.
I've definitely seen these in more homes and offices than anything from La Marzocco.
The fact that it costs a tenth of the La Marzocco Linea Mini helps a lot.
putting milk in your coffee haha
Since the thread is full of coffee enthusiasts: I recently stepped outside my espresso-only routine and started appreciating V60 and Origami pour-overs. It's been great realizing how much depth there is outside of espresso. Where does the rest of HN crowd land on pour-overs?
La Marzocco GS3 and Olympia Express owner here. LM isn't the Ferrari ... that title really should go to KVW and Slayer :)