The way to develop in this space seems to be to give away free stuff, get your name out there, then make everything proprietary. I hope they still continue releasing open weights. The day no one releases open weights is a sad day for humanity. Normal people won’t own their own compute if that ever happens.
I think they're in a win-win situation. Big AI companies would love to see local computing die in favour of the cloud because they are well aware the moment an open model that can run on non ludicrous consumer hardware appears, they're screwed. In this situation Nvidia, AMD and the like would be the only ones profiting from it - even though I'm not convinced they'd prefer going back to fighting for B2C while B2B Is so much simpler for them
If you want to run AI models at scale and with reasonably quick response, there's not many alternatives to datacenter hardware. Consumer hardware is great for repurposing existing "free" compute (including gaming PCs, pro workstations etc. at the higher end) and for basic insurance against rug pulls from the big AI vendors, but increased scale will probably still bring very real benefits.
Always has been, it’s literally saas; the slight difference is that the lowest tier subscriptions at the frontier labs are basically free trials nowadays, too
The Chinese state wants the world using their models.
People think that Chinese AI labs are just super cool bros that love sharing for free.
The don't understand it's just a state sponsored venture meant to further entrench China in global supply and logistics. China's VCs are Chinese banks and a sprinkle of "private" money. Private in quotes because technically it still belongs to the state anyway.
China doesn't have companies and government like the US. It just has government, and a thin veil of "company" that readily fool westerners.
I'm a little more optimistic than that. I suspect that the open-weight models we already have are going to be enough to support incremental development of new ones, using reasonably-accessible levels of compute.
The idea that every new foundation model needs to be pretrained from scratch, using warehouses of GPUs to crunch the same 50 terabytes of data from the same original dumps of Common Crawl and various Russian pirate sites, is hard to justify on an intuitive basis. I think the hard work has already been done. We just don't know how to leverage it properly yet.
With them comparing to Opus 4.5, I find it hard to take some of these in good faith. Opus 4.7 is new, so I don't expect that, but Opus 4.6 has been out for quite some time.
If money is no object, then nothing else is worth considering if it isn't Codex 5.4/Opus 4.7/SOTA. But for many to most people, value Vs. relative quality are huge levers.
Even many people on a Claude subscription aren't choosing or able to choose Opus 4.7 because of those cost/usage pressures. Often using Sonnet or an older opus, because of the value Vs. quality curve.
Unfortunately, like with the release of Qwen3.6-Plus, this model also isn’t released for local use. From the linked article: “Qwen3.6-Max-Preview is the hosted proprietary model available via Alibaba Cloud Model Studio”
Cost may or may not be a factor in my choice of model, but knowing the capabilities and knowing they will remain consistent, reliable, and available over time is always a dominant consideration. Lately, Anthropic in particular has not been great at that.
When Sonnet 4.6 was released, I switchmed my default from Opus to Sonnet because it was about en par with Opus 4.5. While 4.6 and 4.7 are "better", the leap is too small for most tasks for me to need it, and so reducing cost is now a valid reason to stay at that level.
If even cheaper models start reaching that level (GLM 5.1 is also close enough that I'm using it at lot), that's a big deal, and a totally valid reason to compare against Opus 4.5
Their Plus series have existed since Qwen chat was available , as far as I remember. I can at least remember trying out their Plus model early last year.
Nowadays, I'm working on a realtime path tracer where you need proper understanding of microfacet reflection models, PDFs, (multiple) importance sampling, ReSTIR, etc.. Saying that mine is a pretty unique specific use case.
And I've using Claude, Gemini, GLM, Qwen to double check my math, my code and to get practical information to make my path tracer more efficient. Claude and Gemini failed me a couple of times with wrong, misleading and unnecessary information but on the other hand Qwen always gave me proper, practical and correct information. I almost stopped using Claude and Gemini to not to waste my time anymore.
Claude code may shine developing web applications, backends and simple games. But it's definitely not for me. And this is the story of my specific use case.
I have said similar things about someone experiencing similar things while writing some OpenGL code (some raytracing etc) that these models have very little understanding and aren't good at anything beyond basic CRUD web apps.
In my own experience, even with web app of medium scale (think Odoo kind of ERP), they are next to useless in understanding and modling domain correctly with very detailed written specs fed in (whole directory with index.md and sub sections and more detailed sections/chapters in separate markdown files with pointers in index.md) and I am not talking open weight models here - I am talking SOTA Claude Opus 4.6 and Gemini 3.1 Pro etc.
But that narrative isn't popular. I see the parallels here with the Crypto and NFT era. That was surely the future and at least my firm pays me in cypto whereas NFTs are used for rewarding bonusess.
a semester ago i was taking a machine learning exam in uni and the exam tasked us with creating a neural network using only numerical libraries (no pytorch ecc). I'm sure that there are a huge lot of examples looking all the same, but given that we were just students without a lot of prior experience we probably deviated from what it had in its training data, with more naive or weird solutions. Asking gemini 3 to refactor things or in very narrow things to help was ok, but it was quite bad at getting the general context, and spotting bugs, so much that a few times it was easier to grab the book and get the original formula right
otoh, we spotted a wrong formula regarding learning rate on wikipedia and it is now correct :) without gemini and just our intuition of "mhh this formula doesn't seem right", that definitely inflated our ego
What size of Qwen is that, though? The largest sizes are admittedly difficult to run locally (though this is an issue of current capability wrt. inference engines, not just raw hardware).
How "social" does Quen feel? The way I am using LLMs for coding makes this actually the most important aspect by now. Claude 4.6 felt like a nice knowledgeable coworker who shared his thinking while solving problems. Claude 4.7 is the difficult anti-social guy who jumps ahead instead of actually answering your questions and does not like to talk to people in general. How are Qwen's social skills?
Everybody's out here chasing SOTA, meanwhile I'm getting all my coding done with MiniMax M2.5 in multiple parallel sessions for $10/month and never running into limits.
For serious work, the difference between spending $10/month and $100/month is not even worth considering for most professional developers. There are exceptions like students and people in very low income countries, but I’m always confused by developers with in careers where six figure salaries are normal who are going cheap on tools.
I find even the SOTA models to be far away from trustworthy for anything beyond throwaway tasks. Supervising a less-than-SOTA model to save $10 to $100 per month is not attractive to me in the least.
I have been experimenting with self hosted models for smaller throwaway tasks a lot. It’s fun, but I’m not going to waste my time with it for the real work.
You need to supervise the model anyway, because you want that code to be long-term maintainable and defect free, and AI is nowhere near strong enough to guarantee that anytime soon. Using the latest Opus for literally everything is just a huge waste of effort.
I find it odd that none of OpenAI models was used in comparison, but used Z GLM 5.1. Is Z (GLM 5.1) really that good? It is crushing Opus 4.5 in these benchmarks, if that is true, I would have expected to read many articles on HN on how people flocked CC and Codex to use it.
In fact it is appreciated that Qwen is comparing to a peer. I myself and several eng I know are trying GLM. It's legit. Definitely not the same as Codex or Opus, but cheaper and "good enough". I basically ask GLM to solve a program, walk away 10-15 minutes, and the problem is solved.
cheaper is quite subjective, I just went to their pricing page [0] and cost saving compared to performance does not sell it well (again, personal opinion).
CC has a limited capacity for Opus, but fairly good for Sonnet. For Codex, never had issues about hitting my limits and I'm only a pro user.
GLM 5.1 is pretty good, probably the best non-US agentic coding model currently available. But both GLM 5.0 and 5.1 have had issues with availability and performance that makes them frustrating to use. Recently GLM 5.1 was also outputting garbage thinking traces for me, but that appears to be fixed now.
GLM-5 is good, like really good. Especially if you take pricing into consideration. I paid 7$ for 3 months. And I get more usage than CC.
They have difficulty supplying their users with capacity, but in an email they pointed out that they are aware of it. During peak hours, I experience degraded performance. But I am on their lowest tier subscription, so I understand if my demand is not prioritized during those hours.
GLM 5.1 is the first model I've found good enough to spring for a subscription for other than Claude and Codex.
It's not crushing Opus 4.5 in real-life use for me, but it's close enough to be near interchangeable with Sonnet for me for a lot of tasks, though some of the "savings" are eaten up by seemingly using more tokens for similar complexity tasks (I don't have enough data yet, but I've pushed ~500m tokens through it so far.
Yes. GLM 5.1 is that good. I don't think it is as good as Claude was in January or February of this year, but it is similar to how Claude runs now, perhaps better because I feel like it's performance is more consistent.
I'm using GLM 5.1 for the last two weeks as a cheaper alternative to Sonnet, and it's great - probably somewhere between Sonnet and Opus. It's pretty slow though.
I've been using it through OpenCode Go and it does seem decent in my limited experience. I haven't done anything which I could directly compare to Opus yet though.
I did give it one task which was more complex and I was quite impressed by. I had a local setup with Tiltdev, K3S and a pnpm monorepo which was failing to run the web application dev server; GLM correctly figured out that it was a container image build cache issue after inspecting the containers etc and corrected the Tiltfile and build setup.
Most HN commenters seem to be a step behind the latest developments, and sometimes miss them entirely (Kimi K2.5 is one example). Not surprising as most people don't want to put in the effort to sift through the bullshit on Twitter to figure out the latest opinions. Many people here will still prefer the output of Opus 4.5/4.6/4.7, nowadays this mostly comes down to the aesthetic choices Anthropic has made.
Not just aesthetics though, from time to time I implement the same feature with CC and Codex just to compare results, and I yet to find Codex making better decisions or even the completeness of the feature.
For more complicated stuff, like queries or data comparison, Codex seems always behind for me.
its an SKU from OpenAI's perspective, broader goal and vision is (was) different. Look at the Claude and GLM, both were 95% committed to dev tooling: best coding models, coding harness, even their cowork is built on top of claude code
I'm not sure how this makes sense when Claude models aren't even coding specific: Haiku, Sonnet, Opus are the exact same models you'd use for chat or (with the recent Mythos) bleeding edge research.
I am trying since one week to subscribe Alibaba Coding Plan (to use Qwen 3.6 Plus) but it's always out of stock. They said they are refreshing at 00:00 each day but they don't allow new subscriptions, they just say they will restock the next day. :)
The way to develop in this space seems to be to give away free stuff, get your name out there, then make everything proprietary. I hope they still continue releasing open weights. The day no one releases open weights is a sad day for humanity. Normal people won’t own their own compute if that ever happens.
I think it is in the interest of chip makers to make sure we all get local models
I think they're in a win-win situation. Big AI companies would love to see local computing die in favour of the cloud because they are well aware the moment an open model that can run on non ludicrous consumer hardware appears, they're screwed. In this situation Nvidia, AMD and the like would be the only ones profiting from it - even though I'm not convinced they'd prefer going back to fighting for B2C while B2B Is so much simpler for them
If you want to run AI models at scale and with reasonably quick response, there's not many alternatives to datacenter hardware. Consumer hardware is great for repurposing existing "free" compute (including gaming PCs, pro workstations etc. at the higher end) and for basic insurance against rug pulls from the big AI vendors, but increased scale will probably still bring very real benefits.
Definitely. Many big hardware firms are directly supporting HuggingFace for this very reason.
True, chip companies have the opposite mindset, Nvidia is making their own open weights I believe
Always has been, it’s literally saas; the slight difference is that the lowest tier subscriptions at the frontier labs are basically free trials nowadays, too
Any reason for them to do this other than altruism? I don’t think this can be regulated.
Bake ads into them.
The Chinese state wants the world using their models.
People think that Chinese AI labs are just super cool bros that love sharing for free.
The don't understand it's just a state sponsored venture meant to further entrench China in global supply and logistics. China's VCs are Chinese banks and a sprinkle of "private" money. Private in quotes because technically it still belongs to the state anyway.
China doesn't have companies and government like the US. It just has government, and a thin veil of "company" that readily fool westerners.
Well, isn't this what the US and really any other power in the world has always done, since forever?
So what?
I still prefer that over US total dominance.
Let them fight it out.
I'm a little more optimistic than that. I suspect that the open-weight models we already have are going to be enough to support incremental development of new ones, using reasonably-accessible levels of compute.
The idea that every new foundation model needs to be pretrained from scratch, using warehouses of GPUs to crunch the same 50 terabytes of data from the same original dumps of Common Crawl and various Russian pirate sites, is hard to justify on an intuitive basis. I think the hard work has already been done. We just don't know how to leverage it properly yet.
With them comparing to Opus 4.5, I find it hard to take some of these in good faith. Opus 4.7 is new, so I don't expect that, but Opus 4.6 has been out for quite some time.
If money is no object, then nothing else is worth considering if it isn't Codex 5.4/Opus 4.7/SOTA. But for many to most people, value Vs. relative quality are huge levers.
Even many people on a Claude subscription aren't choosing or able to choose Opus 4.7 because of those cost/usage pressures. Often using Sonnet or an older opus, because of the value Vs. quality curve.
Also us weirdos with local model uses. But your point stands.
Unfortunately, like with the release of Qwen3.6-Plus, this model also isn’t released for local use. From the linked article: “Qwen3.6-Max-Preview is the hosted proprietary model available via Alibaba Cloud Model Studio”
The Max series was never available for local use, though. So this is expected.
Cost may or may not be a factor in my choice of model, but knowing the capabilities and knowing they will remain consistent, reliable, and available over time is always a dominant consideration. Lately, Anthropic in particular has not been great at that.
Codex subscription is very generous at pro tiers
When Sonnet 4.6 was released, I switchmed my default from Opus to Sonnet because it was about en par with Opus 4.5. While 4.6 and 4.7 are "better", the leap is too small for most tasks for me to need it, and so reducing cost is now a valid reason to stay at that level.
If even cheaper models start reaching that level (GLM 5.1 is also close enough that I'm using it at lot), that's a big deal, and a totally valid reason to compare against Opus 4.5
Wow I couldn't disagree more.
For me, Opus 4.5 and 4.6 feel so different compared to sonnet.
Maybe I'm lazy or something but sonnet is much worse in my experience at inferring intent correctly if I've left any ambiguity.
That effect is super compounding.
Opus 4.6 performance has been so wildly inconsistent over the past couple of months, why waste the tokens?
You compare with what's most comparable.
In any case a benchmark provided by the provider is always biased, they will pick the frameworks where their model fares well. Omit the others.
Independent benchmarks are the go to.
Quite some time is a little over 2 months. I understand this is actually true right now, but it’s still a bit hard to accept.
I think its only been like 10 weeks. I meant that's forever in AI time, but not a long time in normie people time.
The fun thing is, you can be aware of the entire range of Qwen models that are available for local running, but not at all about their cloud models.
I knew of all the 3.5’s and the one 3.6, but only now heard about the Plus.
Their Plus series have existed since Qwen chat was available , as far as I remember. I can at least remember trying out their Plus model early last year.
Nowadays, I'm working on a realtime path tracer where you need proper understanding of microfacet reflection models, PDFs, (multiple) importance sampling, ReSTIR, etc.. Saying that mine is a pretty unique specific use case.
And I've using Claude, Gemini, GLM, Qwen to double check my math, my code and to get practical information to make my path tracer more efficient. Claude and Gemini failed me a couple of times with wrong, misleading and unnecessary information but on the other hand Qwen always gave me proper, practical and correct information. I almost stopped using Claude and Gemini to not to waste my time anymore.
Claude code may shine developing web applications, backends and simple games. But it's definitely not for me. And this is the story of my specific use case.
I have said similar things about someone experiencing similar things while writing some OpenGL code (some raytracing etc) that these models have very little understanding and aren't good at anything beyond basic CRUD web apps.
In my own experience, even with web app of medium scale (think Odoo kind of ERP), they are next to useless in understanding and modling domain correctly with very detailed written specs fed in (whole directory with index.md and sub sections and more detailed sections/chapters in separate markdown files with pointers in index.md) and I am not talking open weight models here - I am talking SOTA Claude Opus 4.6 and Gemini 3.1 Pro etc.
But that narrative isn't popular. I see the parallels here with the Crypto and NFT era. That was surely the future and at least my firm pays me in cypto whereas NFTs are used for rewarding bonusess.
a semester ago i was taking a machine learning exam in uni and the exam tasked us with creating a neural network using only numerical libraries (no pytorch ecc). I'm sure that there are a huge lot of examples looking all the same, but given that we were just students without a lot of prior experience we probably deviated from what it had in its training data, with more naive or weird solutions. Asking gemini 3 to refactor things or in very narrow things to help was ok, but it was quite bad at getting the general context, and spotting bugs, so much that a few times it was easier to grab the book and get the original formula right
otoh, we spotted a wrong formula regarding learning rate on wikipedia and it is now correct :) without gemini and just our intuition of "mhh this formula doesn't seem right", that definitely inflated our ego
Someone exactly said it better here[0] already.
[0]. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47817982
What size of Qwen is that, though? The largest sizes are admittedly difficult to run locally (though this is an issue of current capability wrt. inference engines, not just raw hardware).
I'm directly using https://chat.qwen.ai (Qwen3.6-Plus) and planning to switch to Qwen Code with subscription.
You may be interested in "radiance cascades"
How "social" does Quen feel? The way I am using LLMs for coding makes this actually the most important aspect by now. Claude 4.6 felt like a nice knowledgeable coworker who shared his thinking while solving problems. Claude 4.7 is the difficult anti-social guy who jumps ahead instead of actually answering your questions and does not like to talk to people in general. How are Qwen's social skills?
Qwen feels like wise Chinese philosopher. Talks in very short elegant sentences, but does very solid work.
Everybody's out here chasing SOTA, meanwhile I'm getting all my coding done with MiniMax M2.5 in multiple parallel sessions for $10/month and never running into limits.
For serious work, the difference between spending $10/month and $100/month is not even worth considering for most professional developers. There are exceptions like students and people in very low income countries, but I’m always confused by developers with in careers where six figure salaries are normal who are going cheap on tools.
I find even the SOTA models to be far away from trustworthy for anything beyond throwaway tasks. Supervising a less-than-SOTA model to save $10 to $100 per month is not attractive to me in the least.
I have been experimenting with self hosted models for smaller throwaway tasks a lot. It’s fun, but I’m not going to waste my time with it for the real work.
You need to supervise the model anyway, because you want that code to be long-term maintainable and defect free, and AI is nowhere near strong enough to guarantee that anytime soon. Using the latest Opus for literally everything is just a huge waste of effort.
Waste of effort... of Opus? If "Opus effort" is cheaper, than dev hours managing yourself more dumb/effective model, what is the point?
rich people dont concern themselves with the cost of tokens.
I find it odd that none of OpenAI models was used in comparison, but used Z GLM 5.1. Is Z (GLM 5.1) really that good? It is crushing Opus 4.5 in these benchmarks, if that is true, I would have expected to read many articles on HN on how people flocked CC and Codex to use it.
In fact it is appreciated that Qwen is comparing to a peer. I myself and several eng I know are trying GLM. It's legit. Definitely not the same as Codex or Opus, but cheaper and "good enough". I basically ask GLM to solve a program, walk away 10-15 minutes, and the problem is solved.
cheaper is quite subjective, I just went to their pricing page [0] and cost saving compared to performance does not sell it well (again, personal opinion).
CC has a limited capacity for Opus, but fairly good for Sonnet. For Codex, never had issues about hitting my limits and I'm only a pro user.
https://z.ai/subscribe
GLM 5.1 is pretty good, probably the best non-US agentic coding model currently available. But both GLM 5.0 and 5.1 have had issues with availability and performance that makes them frustrating to use. Recently GLM 5.1 was also outputting garbage thinking traces for me, but that appears to be fixed now.
Use them via DeepInfra instead of z.ai. No reliability issues.
https://deepinfra.com/zai-org/GLM-5.1
Looks like fp4 quantization now though? Last week was showing fp8. Hm..
Deepinfra's implementation of it is not correct. Thinking is not preserved, and they're not responding to my submitted issue about it.
I also regularly experience Deepinfra slow to an absolute crawl - I've actually gotten more consistent performance from Z.ai.
I really liked Deepinfra but something doesn't seem right over there at the moment.
Damn. Yeah, that sucks. I did play with it earlier again and it did seem to slow down.
It's frankly a bummer that there's not seemingly a better serving option for GLM 5.1 than z.AI, who seems to have reliability and cost issues.
GLM-5 is good, like really good. Especially if you take pricing into consideration. I paid 7$ for 3 months. And I get more usage than CC.
They have difficulty supplying their users with capacity, but in an email they pointed out that they are aware of it. During peak hours, I experience degraded performance. But I am on their lowest tier subscription, so I understand if my demand is not prioritized during those hours.
Where are you getting 3 months for $7?
GLM 5.1 is the first model I've found good enough to spring for a subscription for other than Claude and Codex.
It's not crushing Opus 4.5 in real-life use for me, but it's close enough to be near interchangeable with Sonnet for me for a lot of tasks, though some of the "savings" are eaten up by seemingly using more tokens for similar complexity tasks (I don't have enough data yet, but I've pushed ~500m tokens through it so far.
Yes. GLM 5.1 is that good. I don't think it is as good as Claude was in January or February of this year, but it is similar to how Claude runs now, perhaps better because I feel like it's performance is more consistent.
I'm using GLM 5.1 for the last two weeks as a cheaper alternative to Sonnet, and it's great - probably somewhere between Sonnet and Opus. It's pretty slow though.
I've been using it through OpenCode Go and it does seem decent in my limited experience. I haven't done anything which I could directly compare to Opus yet though.
I did give it one task which was more complex and I was quite impressed by. I had a local setup with Tiltdev, K3S and a pnpm monorepo which was failing to run the web application dev server; GLM correctly figured out that it was a container image build cache issue after inspecting the containers etc and corrected the Tiltfile and build setup.
Most HN commenters seem to be a step behind the latest developments, and sometimes miss them entirely (Kimi K2.5 is one example). Not surprising as most people don't want to put in the effort to sift through the bullshit on Twitter to figure out the latest opinions. Many people here will still prefer the output of Opus 4.5/4.6/4.7, nowadays this mostly comes down to the aesthetic choices Anthropic has made.
Not just aesthetics though, from time to time I implement the same feature with CC and Codex just to compare results, and I yet to find Codex making better decisions or even the completeness of the feature.
For more complicated stuff, like queries or data comparison, Codex seems always behind for me.
maybe they decided OpenAI has different market, hence comparing only with companies who are focusing in dev tooling: Claude, GLM
Haven’t you heard about Codex?
its an SKU from OpenAI's perspective, broader goal and vision is (was) different. Look at the Claude and GLM, both were 95% committed to dev tooling: best coding models, coding harness, even their cowork is built on top of claude code
I'm not sure how this makes sense when Claude models aren't even coding specific: Haiku, Sonnet, Opus are the exact same models you'd use for chat or (with the recent Mythos) bleeding edge research.
Anthropic models and training data is optimized for coding use cases, this is the difference.
OpenAI on the other hand has different models optimized for coding, GPT-x-codex, Anthropic doesnt have this distinction
Yeah GLM’s great for coding, code review, and tool use. Not amazing at other domains.
I use it and think its intelligence compares favorably with OpenAI and Anthropic workhorses. Its biggest weakness is its speed.
I am trying since one week to subscribe Alibaba Coding Plan (to use Qwen 3.6 Plus) but it's always out of stock. They said they are refreshing at 00:00 each day but they don't allow new subscriptions, they just say they will restock the next day. :)