This is very cool, and quite surprising. Cleaner fish are thought to be among the most intelligent fish because of the complexity and danger of their feeding strategy: it takes careful planning and quick thinking. But they aren't tied to any particular species of host or general tactic; naively I imagine cleaner fish are more versatile and adaptable than cone ants.
It would be interesting to learn if this occurs with other species of ants. I suppose until now nobody thought to look.
Cooperation and symbiosis are very general survival strategies. They apear at all levels of the biological abstraction hierarchy, all the way down to mitochondria, which are almost certainly descended from what was once an independent organism. In fact, even a genome itself can be seen as a collection of mutually cooperating replicators. No intelligence is required for cooperation to evolve. It's a straightforward consequence of game theory.
Yes! Cooperation seems to be just as fundamental, if not more, than competition. We wouldn't have gotten volcanic islands to break down into soil if it weren't for the partnership that is lichen. We wouldn't be able to digest a tenth of what we're able to eat if it weren't for our gut bacteria. We wouldn't have trees if it weren't for mycorrhizal fungi which over 90% of plants depend on.
There's a famous paper/framework called "Major evolutionary transitions in individuality" that sketches out a big picture pattern of major evolutionary advances in complexity following a surprisingly consistent pattern: As cooperation and division of labor strongly increase, selection starts working on larger entities. This pattern holds all the way back to the origin of life itself as things moved from self-assembling molecules to compartmentalized populations of molecules, from replicators to chromosomes, from RNA+enzymes to DNA+proteins, from prokaryotic cells to eukaryotic cells, from unicellular to multicellular, from individuals to colonies/superorganisms, and (possibly) onwards to more complex societies
> Cooperation seems to be just as fundamental, if not more, than competition
Both are fundamental. You can't survive without cooperating, but you also can't survive if you try to cooperate with the entire biosphere because ultimately there is competition for scarce resources. If you don't assert yourself to claim your share of those, something else will.
I would highly recommend you read through the paper. Alongside these "advanced in individuality" comes reduced (internal) competition.
I agree that both are important but competition only seems to be important at the very edges of what selection is acting upon while cooperation is truly "fundamental"
mmmm it's equally likely that mitochondria's precursors were self interested parasites or predators, whose negative effects were competitively neutralized by defensive host adaptations that exploititively colonialized them. No intelligence or cooperation is required for co-opt-ation to evolve. It's a straightforward consequence of game theory.
This is a frustrating response to my comment. I am aware that symbiosis is universal. That's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about the specific and highly unusual behavior of crawling inside of a much larger animal's mouth and trusting it not to eat you. Cleaner fish are highly intelligent[1] and it appears that this intelligence is necessary for their niche:
- picking a good location for a cleaning station requires long-term planning and real strategic judgment;
- deciding which hosts to accept is a complex skill requiring some sort of rudimentary theory of mind + long-term development of social ties;
- like crows, cleaner fish are jerks who constantly try to screw each other over, so there is something of a cognition arms race.
I will add that the wrasse family of cleaner fish use rocks to smash open shellfish (i.e. they are tool-users), and they have very complex group strategies for raising their young. In fact I'm not convinced that wrasse evolved to be cleaner fish at all: they are natural scavengers and scum-suckers, perhaps cleaning stations are a form of cultural technology.
I would be extremely surprised if any of this was true for cone ants. I suspect that is more hard-wired, perhaps a local subspecies stumbled into a genetic fluke, and as you say due to game theory it is a local optimum this population has settled on. If this behavior were common like it is in vertebrates, we probably would have seen it earlier. But who knows? 20 years ago I would have thought "fish have a form of culture" is too ridiculous an idea to consider.
Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine... Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
I was trying to have a conversation. This is the second time you've responded with something thoughtlessly dismissive. The "OK" was you intentionally being rude for no reason. But I am particularly annoyed by this:
> and it appears that this intelligence is necessary
Manifestly not, at least not in general.
What do you mean "manifestly not"? You say that as if you have evidence, but you don't. The reason I claimed it is necessary for cleaner fish's niche is that they are not species-specific symbiotes, they accept all comers and have to be careful about untrustworthy fish. That is the crucial difference between them and cone ants. That's why I said "naively I imagine cleaner fish are more versatile and adaptable than cone ants." So do you mean anything by "manifestly not"? Or were you being condescending and overconfident?
You are not engaging with any of the substance of my comment, and simply treating me like an idiot. I don't understand the point of being so reflexively hostile about zoology.
why haven't any animals adapted to this role for humans!
In a Sense, cats did actually. Not through direct contact, but by getting rid of mice and rats that infiltrate food storage.
Cat’s will also literally try to clean you as well!
This is very cool, and quite surprising. Cleaner fish are thought to be among the most intelligent fish because of the complexity and danger of their feeding strategy: it takes careful planning and quick thinking. But they aren't tied to any particular species of host or general tactic; naively I imagine cleaner fish are more versatile and adaptable than cone ants.
It would be interesting to learn if this occurs with other species of ants. I suppose until now nobody thought to look.
Cooperation and symbiosis are very general survival strategies. They apear at all levels of the biological abstraction hierarchy, all the way down to mitochondria, which are almost certainly descended from what was once an independent organism. In fact, even a genome itself can be seen as a collection of mutually cooperating replicators. No intelligence is required for cooperation to evolve. It's a straightforward consequence of game theory.
Yes! Cooperation seems to be just as fundamental, if not more, than competition. We wouldn't have gotten volcanic islands to break down into soil if it weren't for the partnership that is lichen. We wouldn't be able to digest a tenth of what we're able to eat if it weren't for our gut bacteria. We wouldn't have trees if it weren't for mycorrhizal fungi which over 90% of plants depend on.
There's a famous paper/framework called "Major evolutionary transitions in individuality" that sketches out a big picture pattern of major evolutionary advances in complexity following a surprisingly consistent pattern: As cooperation and division of labor strongly increase, selection starts working on larger entities. This pattern holds all the way back to the origin of life itself as things moved from self-assembling molecules to compartmentalized populations of molecules, from replicators to chromosomes, from RNA+enzymes to DNA+proteins, from prokaryotic cells to eukaryotic cells, from unicellular to multicellular, from individuals to colonies/superorganisms, and (possibly) onwards to more complex societies
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1421402112
> Cooperation seems to be just as fundamental, if not more, than competition
Both are fundamental. You can't survive without cooperating, but you also can't survive if you try to cooperate with the entire biosphere because ultimately there is competition for scarce resources. If you don't assert yourself to claim your share of those, something else will.
Yes, but does your kidney compete with your lung?
I would highly recommend you read through the paper. Alongside these "advanced in individuality" comes reduced (internal) competition.
I agree that both are important but competition only seems to be important at the very edges of what selection is acting upon while cooperation is truly "fundamental"
mmmm it's equally likely that mitochondria's precursors were self interested parasites or predators, whose negative effects were competitively neutralized by defensive host adaptations that exploititively colonialized them. No intelligence or cooperation is required for co-opt-ation to evolve. It's a straightforward consequence of game theory.
> it's equally likely that mitochondria's precursors were self interested parasites or predators
That is in no way at odds with what I said.
This is a frustrating response to my comment. I am aware that symbiosis is universal. That's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about the specific and highly unusual behavior of crawling inside of a much larger animal's mouth and trusting it not to eat you. Cleaner fish are highly intelligent[1] and it appears that this intelligence is necessary for their niche:
- picking a good location for a cleaning station requires long-term planning and real strategic judgment;
- deciding which hosts to accept is a complex skill requiring some sort of rudimentary theory of mind + long-term development of social ties;
- like crows, cleaner fish are jerks who constantly try to screw each other over, so there is something of a cognition arms race.
I will add that the wrasse family of cleaner fish use rocks to smash open shellfish (i.e. they are tool-users), and they have very complex group strategies for raising their young. In fact I'm not convinced that wrasse evolved to be cleaner fish at all: they are natural scavengers and scum-suckers, perhaps cleaning stations are a form of cultural technology.
I would be extremely surprised if any of this was true for cone ants. I suspect that is more hard-wired, perhaps a local subspecies stumbled into a genetic fluke, and as you say due to game theory it is a local optimum this population has settled on. If this behavior were common like it is in vertebrates, we probably would have seen it earlier. But who knows? 20 years ago I would have thought "fish have a form of culture" is too ridiculous an idea to consider.
[1] Seriously: https://journals.library.columbia.edu/index.php/cusj/blog/vi... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-25837-0
> I am talking about the specific and highly unusual behavior of crawling inside of a much larger animal's mouth and trusting it not to eat you.
OK.
> Cleaner fish are highly intelligent[1]
Yes.
> and it appears that this intelligence is necessary
Manifestly not, at least not in general.
> for their niche:
That is an open question. Just because an unintelligent cleaner fish hasn't evolved doesn't mean it couldn't.
You are not engaging with any of the substance of my comment, and simply treating me like an idiot. I don't understand the point of being so reflexively hostile about zoology.
this is no surprise to anyone who has read dougal dixon's 'man after man'