Of all the potential uses for AI, catching people violating traffic laws in safety critical situations is one of the least offensive to me. Ticketing people who run school bus stops is a no brainer. Same for people recklessly driving through construction zones or making unsafe passes on two lane roads. Also a fan of using these systems to ticket people looking at their phones while driving. Too many people die every year from stupid reckless driving.
The problem, of course, is all the thousands of vehicles caught up in the scans that didn't violate any traffic laws. What happens with that data? Why should my privacy be compromised for the chance of someone committing a minor traffic infraction?
Hell, let's just police everyone's hard drives just in case, you know? Isn't catching pedophiles a good thing, after all?
If a school bus with cameras films you on your private land then trespass it away and get a court order to destroy records. On a public street, however, you don't have privacy, anybody can film you.
They very well might be using the data in nefarious ways beyond just detecting people who blow through a bus stop sign, and I support legislation restricting that.
But when you’re driving a deadly vehicle on public roads, you don’t have a legal right to privacy that’s the same as if you were on private property.
I trust zero cameras in a world where Flock exists. Seeing me in a camera in a public place? Not a violation of my privacy. Using cameras to track my movements? Absolutely a violation of my privacy.
I don't own a car, but I still walk on the sidewalks, and these cameras can still see my face. Or do I also need to accept the reduced privacy imposed on motorists when I step outside my front door facing a road?
I partially agree, but current monetary fines were set when enforcement was very manual and often lenient. Technically, in California, even speeding 1 MPH above the speed limit can land you a $234 fine. If we had perfect AI systems that fined everyone every time they went 1 MPH over, most Californians would be broke. Certainly, most people break a dozen laws every time they drive to work.
You can say that we should only restrict this to critical safety situations, but it becomes a very slippery slope once cities start to see that revenue coming in. In some situations, cities have contracted private companies who profit on every ticket their cameras issue - that creates a huge conflict of interest and incentive for them to keep tuning the cameras to catch more and more 'offenses'.
It's the AI term bloat where any application of machine learning or vision becomes AI, it's been happening for 2+ decades now I think it's pretty well established and here to stay.
That said it does need to be more complex because to produce as few false positives as it can, which would cost BusPatrol money to review in their first pass before sending to police (so there's at least a minor incentive to reduce them), they would have to determine where the car is and if it's required to stop not just trigger if a car passes by while the arm is out. Laws vary a lot by state but usually if there's any kind of real median traffic in the opposite direction is not required to stop so it would at least need to detect if that is present (or work off a database that knows where all the divided roads are in the area I'm not sure which would be cheaper but mapping feels harder and having the camera able to determine if there's a median can be deployed anywhere while mapping data is location specific).
There are models that do license plate recognition, ie to find the specific box in an image that contains the license plate. Then there are also OCR models to read the characters from the plate itself. Both have been around for a long time and are not particularly revolutionary technology.
They'd be at least minorly incentivized to cut down on false positives because 1) they had a review step before sending to the police and 2) if they're cheaping out on that first review and sending loads of false positives to the cops for citations they're likely to lose their contracts.
I have no sympathy for people who speed past a stopped school bus.
With that said, the automation of law enforcement is deeply concerning to me. I'm of the opinion that most of our laws are calibrated based on enforcement costs that are simply being removed and it's going to fundamentally transform society if we continue to automate in this way.
My daughter got one of these. The school bus was pulled over on the side of the road; not in a travel lane. The bus driver opened the door as she was passing the back of the bus and closed it before she got to the front of the bus. She got a $250 fine. I pled not guilty (because it is my car). This was last summer, and we still do not have a court date.
Plenty of these tickets are BS that most actual cops would not write. The only saving grace is there is video instead of just someone's description of what happened.
At 15 mph it would take less than 2 seconds for a car at the back of a bus to reach the front of a bus. Are you suggesting that the driver of the bus was able to open and then close their door in less than two seconds? Alternatively, Are you suggesting that your daughter was driving slower than 15 mph yet was unable to stop?
I certainly believe there is room for discretion when officers write tickets, but not for passing a school bus.
What I like about the automation of rules is that it takes away targeted enforcement and the opportunity for leniency to be offered only to certain groups.
The UK model for speed cameras is that they can (generally) only be placed in areas that have shown to have a higher than average number of accidents on the stretch of road, caused by speeding. So at least (in theory) they are focused on reducing accidents and not raising money.
We have a bunch of red light cameras which actually cause more accidents than they prevent. Perhaps t-bones are more dangerous than read-ends, but accident prevention it isn't.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
How do the cameras cause the crash, and not the lights themselves? Is it that the flashes of the camera causes people to brake suddenly, or the very presence of the camera causes some people to brake at the lights and others not to?
I find it interesting, as in the UK we don't have loads of red light cameras (though we do have them) but people driving through red lights is a rarity - even when there is no-one around and at night, the vast majority of people will obey a red light.
It seems pretty messed up to suggest that we shouldn’t enforce people not blowing through red lights because then they’ll slam on their brakes and cause rear end accidents instead.
There's usually a two-second delay between a light turning red and the next light turning green, just as a simple safety precaution. No driver is perfect, and red lights get run through accidentally all the time.
While running the red light is still dangerous, running it as soon as it turns red is unlikely to cause an accident. It's still ticketable, and if a cop sees it happen, they should make a stop and issue a ticket.
If you are distracted, or time the yellow light badly, and you have to make a decision on whether to lay on the horn and run the red light as soon as it changes, or slam your brakes and try to avoid running through the intersection, you're already in a position where you're going to have to commit a moving violation, and you don't need the threat of automatic monetary penalties guiding your judgement on which move to make.
There are situations where slamming the brakes creates a more serious hazard than running the red light, but the red light cameras only ticket you for running the red light. Why create an artificial preference for one hazard over the other, rather than trust the driver to drive defensively in these situations?
The cameras don't even need to go away; they just need a human in the loop to apply these tickets rationally. Maybe don't ticket the driver who barely missed yellow, but do ticket the driver who blew through the red with zero regard for the rules. Make sure these rules are understood by drivers, so that they don't fear automatic enforcement more than they do bodily harm to themselves and others, but still think twice about ignoring the rules of the road.
Not GP, but I've seen multiple credible news stories on this.
The problem isn't the red-light camera itself, it is that whoever installs/manages them also reduces the time of the yellow-light warning, so the red light comes on significantly sooner. The normal yellow light timing is a properly studied and engineered interval based on traffic and speed to give drivers sufficient warning to see, decide, and go or slow-stop in a safe and predictable fashion.
When the red-light-camera installers/managers decide to cut that time to increase infractions and increase revenue, they create situations where drivers think they are going to make it to the intersection in good time, but are surprised by the sooner-changing red light, so emergency-brake before the line. This causes accidents, including accidents where the car is pushed into the intersection and causes a rear-end then T-bone.
This invalid yellow-red light timing was revealed in some lawsuits about it.
I think the right solution is to maintain properly engineered timing, install cameras that also trigger a full video from multiple angles, and manually evaluate each positive and ticket only the egregious ones and have records of the violators who caused accidents.
But since the easy money is evidently too much of a temptation to fck with people, ban them all.
As I understand it, Tesla auto driving (and, maybe, Waymo), have consistency issues with passing stopped school buses. Sometimes they stop, sometimes they don't.
But, what little I read about it, nothing from the photos or video show that the busses were actually signaling. A bus can stop, and you can pass it. When they embark children, they have to put their flashers on (or, back in the day on my busses, they had signals and a STOP sign that popped out from the driver side). When the flashers are running, that's when you are supposed to stop (both ways). Otherwise, it's just a bus on the side of the road.
I normally agree. However, this doesn't really automate the function like speed cameras or regular red-light cameras do. This still has police in the loop. The real problem is that it tickets owner and not driver.
While I acknowledge there is now a legality question around the use of "red light cameras". I have no sympathy for people who are not stopping for school busses: I can't stomach that the article frames this as "burden" on those driving past the bus.
"there’s evidence the program is heavily burdening residents who either can’t or don’t pay the fines."
> The footage is sent to local police for review. If they decide the law was broken, the driver receives a $250 ticket in the mail.
Where is the automation? This is no more automated than a speed camera or a parking camera. It's not even worthy of being called AI truth be told.
Traffic laws are underpoliced by orders of magnitude. Setting aside the general catastrophe which is car-centric (more like car-exclusive) design of our urban and suburban spaces. Technology gives us extremely cheap and easy ways to monitor traffic laws, much cheaper and much more reliable than having a cop roam around. The very least we can do is use it to make cars suck a bit less.
Unfortunately it sounds like this program is designed to maximize revenue for the private vendor, not make roads safer by changing driver behavior. The county is also using this surface-level fix as an excuse to avoid more fundamental road design changes that would actually improve safety for vulnerable road users.
Other automated enforcement mechanisms like average speed cameras and automated tolling are more effective at achieving their purported goals. Ultimately, enforcement will always be secondary to proper road design in both cost and effectiveness.
The speed camera that was found to shorten yellow lights to force more tickets? The flock camera that is used to stalk an ex? These are the cameras you love?
Traffic laws are usually arbitrary, victimless (or at least the perpetrator is the victim), and over-policed because they are revenue drivers and police job security. No crimes, no need for the police.
It also aligns suspiciously with the decline of the sedan and the near-total victory of SUVs and pickup trucks in the American passenger vehicle market.
SUVs and pickups did not win anything in 2010, F-series trucks had been number one best seller through the entire 21st century, and the top 10 selling cars were half and half Camry/Civic/Accord and trucks and SUVs.
Good point. The missing statistic in this thread is the number of injuries, which you'd expect would help tease apart big cars (mass) from phones (attention).
Easily fixed with a cheap camera that records the inside of the car to a device similar to an airplane flight recorder. If we cared about people outside of cars more than people inside of cars. Funnily enough, the political will does not exist to even video record airplane pilots to the flight recorder, even after the numerous suicidal pilots in the last 30 years.
Another funny thing is to notice which people are politically acceptable to record, such as store clerks, warehouse workers, call center workers, basically anyone being paid on the lower end.
But the higher up the socioeconomic ladder you go, the less politically acceptable it is have your actions recorded, even just for scrutiny after an incident.
In 2020 the county issued 36 citations per active camera, or 50,698 citations total. In 2025 the county issued 34 citations per camera, or 51,779 total.
Wow. That is a mind-boggling number of citations.
Montgomery County’s steady stream of stop-arm violations stems largely from one problem: Drivers seem unsure or unaware of what to do when buses are traveling in the opposite lane. The school bus stop at 1400 East-West Highway exemplifies drivers’ confusion, says Moon, the state delegate, standing on the side of the road as traffic whooshes by. It’s right off the highway’s intersection with Colesville Road, a seven-lane thoroughfare with raised medians. In Maryland, drivers traveling in the opposite direction of buses are not required to stop if the roadway is separated by a physical median.
But East-West Highway has two turn lanes, or what Moon calls “a paint illusion,” in which “a median is suggested.” Here, without a true median, it’s illegal to pass the stopped bus, regardless of what lane you’re in, but it’s easy to miss the difference. Many of Montgomery County’s most ticketed stops have these false medians, in addition to wide, congested roads and four-way intersections that Moon says can make it hard for drivers to spot buses stopped across several lanes of traffic. In fiscal year 2025 some 89% of all stop-arm tickets issued at the county’s top-10 citation locations were for opposite-lane violations. “You’re dealing with a very congested urban environment with lots of changes,” Moon says. “There’s just infinite numbers of drivers on these commuter thoroughfares to replenish the people that are getting the first wave of tickets.”
Also there being only 3 collisions since the program started in 2017. There are loads of violations but not many accidents. I'd wager most of the violations happen on the sort of road they mention, 4+ lanes maybe even with a turn lane, where kids are always dropped off on their side of the street so there's not actually kids trying to cross the opposing lanes anyways. [0] From the pictures I'm not entirely sure what the NC laws would say about this, probably stop, but I really doubt they're sending kids across the street there.
I got one of these tickets here. The bus was obscured until it was already stopped, by a truck to my left. I was in the furthest possible lane. Very cool ~$380. (For further context, because like in principle I agree.)
Oh and for fun, if you follow that sidewalk down a bit, you get to see this:
The sidewalk... just... ends because I guess crossing a bridge wasn't in scope?? and I'd pretty regularly see people and kids walking across it to get to the strip mall on the other side.
I'm a little bit mixed after reading the article. I guess I don't entirely blame companies that see a financial opportunity to help enforce laws, as ostensibly, it should be win-win for both the public and private space. Where it breaks down (as the article points out), is when the law is ineffective at achieving it's purported goal. This is where I differ somewhat from the article's conclusion, however, as I view it as the government's responsibility at that point to correct the dysfunctional law. If all the evidence is there—do something about it. There might be a moral expectation that private companies "do the right thing", but there's certainly no practical expectation that will occur.
Case in point: where I live, the interstate is often congested, and a driver "camping" in the left lane frequently leads to traffic jams that back up for miles. The cars that get backed up become frustrated and start zooming and weaving through traffic in the right lanes to get past the blockage. And while there are plenty of police, they only go after the speeders (presumably because speeding tickets are more lucrative). I don't think I've ever seen someone pulled over for squatting in the left lane, despite the fact that it's illegal where I live and despite the presence of numerous signs that say "Keep Right Except to Past".
This is what I would call an example of a dysfunctional law, as I highly suspect that if one had the capability and interest to analyze aerial footage of traffic patterns, it would be found that left lane campers are a much more significant factor in the root cause of interstate traffic accidents than speeders. But the incentives are too perverse to fix the problem, so the situation persists.
Good. People who run school bus stops deserve to be ticketed and fined. This is one application of AI that’s being done right.
There’s a school bus. It’s big and yellow. The stop is shining and blinking. There’s kids about to cross the road. So yes, my sympathy for this sort of behavior is non existent.
I would think data on repeat offenders would be more useful than the overall number when seeing if the system is effective. Stricter penalties are likely to be more effective - the offenders are either choosing not to stop, or they aren't competent at paying attention, etc.
The existence of a credible threat of a fine for breaking the law is enough to dissuade nearly everyone from breaking it. Nobody respects speed limits when there's one in a gazillion chance that a cop actually pulls you over. If they know that if they go over the speed limit the camera WILL snap and they WILL cough up 250$, no chance about it, there's no one that will actually speed there.
"The existence of a credible threat of a fine for breaking the law is enough to dissuade nearly everyone from breaking it."
Yes, but they need to know that threat exists. If they arent aware the bus takes video and sends it to the police, then they don't see the threat. If they don't know you have to stop on a multi-lane road without a median, then they don't see the threat. That's why measuring repeat offenders could be a better signal than an overall number in a relatively short time.
As an aside, diplomats will gladly break laws with a $250 fine because they are largely immune. This is relevant as there are a fair amount in that region. So there are exceptions to your rule.
TDLR: If you read the article it's about school administration corrumption kickbacks and a dot com revenue scam where our tax dollars are wasted on a service that doesnt make kids safer. The tickets aren't the offensive part of this.
I have zero problems with this type of citation. From the description, it sounds like there’s a safety issue with some road markings that needs to be fixed and everyone who is not endangering young pedestrians would be happy.
My only problems are that it tickets the owner instead the driver, and the fine not appropriate. Instead of just a fine, they should probably make the violator (at least repeat violators) pass a subset of the driving test pertaining to laws on school busses (or drivers Ed, etc)
The militant stop for schoolbus story grinds my gears. We don't stop for city buses. Why aren't we teaching children to be defensive and preparing them for the real world. Cross the road when there are no cars. Wait on the side of the road that the bus actually stops at. When a bus stops and I see a kid jump out the door and sprint full throttle in front of the bus and across the opposite lane without so much as a glance I think to myself yikes we are putting a lot of faith in people stopping for flashing red lights.
Fortunately drivers in my area (Detroit Metro) are all in a hurry and seem to want symbiosis with the rest of traffic. They stop and start almost instantly. Kids don't lolly gally. But when I lived in Northern Virginia, it was the opposite. Bus drivers really took liberty with blocking the road for WAY longer than necessary. Huge hall monitor energy, "i'm king of the castle i'll make you wait just to assert myself"
I hope that all this surveilence in some kind twist of fate this will encourage micro-mobility and proper public transport because it becomes the only way to not have your unique identifiable ID across the entire nation in a database and not have fines every month as a normal every day expense.
But then surveilence companies will simply find a reason to start tracking the clothes people wear as 'signals' so it's just going to be less cars with more surveilence.
Might still be an upgrade over a unique id glued to you.
Look, I’m all in on public transit, I have straight up never had a drivers license in my 38 years on earth. That said, I pay for that shit by tapping my phone against a circle. They accept cash but I no longer work a tip-based job. They know where I got on and in some transit systems (not Chicago) you gotta tap to get out, as well. They got cameras on the bus and train pointed right at the spot where everyone’s face is as they get on. Public transit solves many problems, surveillance ain’t one of them.
In hindsight I forgot that all those systems are automated now. Where I live you can just walk in with no identification or payment and I guess I take that for granted. Of course if you get caught that's another problem, but even then you just renew your subscription and only show when checked.
https://archive.ph/DNMyi
Of all the potential uses for AI, catching people violating traffic laws in safety critical situations is one of the least offensive to me. Ticketing people who run school bus stops is a no brainer. Same for people recklessly driving through construction zones or making unsafe passes on two lane roads. Also a fan of using these systems to ticket people looking at their phones while driving. Too many people die every year from stupid reckless driving.
The problem, of course, is all the thousands of vehicles caught up in the scans that didn't violate any traffic laws. What happens with that data? Why should my privacy be compromised for the chance of someone committing a minor traffic infraction?
Hell, let's just police everyone's hard drives just in case, you know? Isn't catching pedophiles a good thing, after all?
If a school bus with cameras films you on your private land then trespass it away and get a court order to destroy records. On a public street, however, you don't have privacy, anybody can film you.
They very well might be using the data in nefarious ways beyond just detecting people who blow through a bus stop sign, and I support legislation restricting that.
But when you’re driving a deadly vehicle on public roads, you don’t have a legal right to privacy that’s the same as if you were on private property.
I trust zero cameras in a world where Flock exists. Seeing me in a camera in a public place? Not a violation of my privacy. Using cameras to track my movements? Absolutely a violation of my privacy.
Laws first, then we’ll talk about cameras.
I don't own a car, but I still walk on the sidewalks, and these cameras can still see my face. Or do I also need to accept the reduced privacy imposed on motorists when I step outside my front door facing a road?
I partially agree, but current monetary fines were set when enforcement was very manual and often lenient. Technically, in California, even speeding 1 MPH above the speed limit can land you a $234 fine. If we had perfect AI systems that fined everyone every time they went 1 MPH over, most Californians would be broke. Certainly, most people break a dozen laws every time they drive to work.
You can say that we should only restrict this to critical safety situations, but it becomes a very slippery slope once cities start to see that revenue coming in. In some situations, cities have contracted private companies who profit on every ticket their cameras issue - that creates a huge conflict of interest and incentive for them to keep tuning the cameras to catch more and more 'offenses'.
I wonder what the AI part is? It seems you could achieve the same thing with a motion triggered or beam-tripped camera. If so, why use "AI" for this?
It's the AI term bloat where any application of machine learning or vision becomes AI, it's been happening for 2+ decades now I think it's pretty well established and here to stay.
That said it does need to be more complex because to produce as few false positives as it can, which would cost BusPatrol money to review in their first pass before sending to police (so there's at least a minor incentive to reduce them), they would have to determine where the car is and if it's required to stop not just trigger if a car passes by while the arm is out. Laws vary a lot by state but usually if there's any kind of real median traffic in the opposite direction is not required to stop so it would at least need to detect if that is present (or work off a database that knows where all the divided roads are in the area I'm not sure which would be cheaper but mapping feels harder and having the camera able to determine if there's a median can be deployed anywhere while mapping data is location specific).
There are models that do license plate recognition, ie to find the specific box in an image that contains the license plate. Then there are also OCR models to read the characters from the plate itself. Both have been around for a long time and are not particularly revolutionary technology.
The post office has used OCR machines (optical character recognition) since the 80s.
I think the 80s machines used something more like hand built digital image processing to find the characters, but OCR is absolutely not new.
That's more like machine vision rather than real AI. But you dont even need that when the video is being sent to a human anyways.
They'd be at least minorly incentivized to cut down on false positives because 1) they had a review step before sending to the police and 2) if they're cheaping out on that first review and sending loads of false positives to the cops for citations they're likely to lose their contracts.
Helps justify the $400/bus monthly "technology fee."
AI just means software at this point.
Yeah I'm of the same view. If you're driving, the least you can do is take the responsibility seriously and give your surroundings proper attention.
An automated fine is the least painful way to enforce that.
I have no sympathy for people who speed past a stopped school bus.
With that said, the automation of law enforcement is deeply concerning to me. I'm of the opinion that most of our laws are calibrated based on enforcement costs that are simply being removed and it's going to fundamentally transform society if we continue to automate in this way.
My daughter got one of these. The school bus was pulled over on the side of the road; not in a travel lane. The bus driver opened the door as she was passing the back of the bus and closed it before she got to the front of the bus. She got a $250 fine. I pled not guilty (because it is my car). This was last summer, and we still do not have a court date.
Plenty of these tickets are BS that most actual cops would not write. The only saving grace is there is video instead of just someone's description of what happened.
At 15 mph it would take less than 2 seconds for a car at the back of a bus to reach the front of a bus. Are you suggesting that the driver of the bus was able to open and then close their door in less than two seconds? Alternatively, Are you suggesting that your daughter was driving slower than 15 mph yet was unable to stop?
I certainly believe there is room for discretion when officers write tickets, but not for passing a school bus.
What I like about the automation of rules is that it takes away targeted enforcement and the opportunity for leniency to be offered only to certain groups.
The UK model for speed cameras is that they can (generally) only be placed in areas that have shown to have a higher than average number of accidents on the stretch of road, caused by speeding. So at least (in theory) they are focused on reducing accidents and not raising money.
We have a bunch of red light cameras which actually cause more accidents than they prevent. Perhaps t-bones are more dangerous than read-ends, but accident prevention it isn't.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
How do the cameras cause the crash, and not the lights themselves? Is it that the flashes of the camera causes people to brake suddenly, or the very presence of the camera causes some people to brake at the lights and others not to?
I find it interesting, as in the UK we don't have loads of red light cameras (though we do have them) but people driving through red lights is a rarity - even when there is no-one around and at night, the vast majority of people will obey a red light.
Do you have any data on that?
It seems pretty messed up to suggest that we shouldn’t enforce people not blowing through red lights because then they’ll slam on their brakes and cause rear end accidents instead.
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/05049/
There's usually a two-second delay between a light turning red and the next light turning green, just as a simple safety precaution. No driver is perfect, and red lights get run through accidentally all the time.
While running the red light is still dangerous, running it as soon as it turns red is unlikely to cause an accident. It's still ticketable, and if a cop sees it happen, they should make a stop and issue a ticket.
If you are distracted, or time the yellow light badly, and you have to make a decision on whether to lay on the horn and run the red light as soon as it changes, or slam your brakes and try to avoid running through the intersection, you're already in a position where you're going to have to commit a moving violation, and you don't need the threat of automatic monetary penalties guiding your judgement on which move to make.
There are situations where slamming the brakes creates a more serious hazard than running the red light, but the red light cameras only ticket you for running the red light. Why create an artificial preference for one hazard over the other, rather than trust the driver to drive defensively in these situations?
The cameras don't even need to go away; they just need a human in the loop to apply these tickets rationally. Maybe don't ticket the driver who barely missed yellow, but do ticket the driver who blew through the red with zero regard for the rules. Make sure these rules are understood by drivers, so that they don't fear automatic enforcement more than they do bodily harm to themselves and others, but still think twice about ignoring the rules of the road.
Not GP, but I've seen multiple credible news stories on this.
The problem isn't the red-light camera itself, it is that whoever installs/manages them also reduces the time of the yellow-light warning, so the red light comes on significantly sooner. The normal yellow light timing is a properly studied and engineered interval based on traffic and speed to give drivers sufficient warning to see, decide, and go or slow-stop in a safe and predictable fashion.
When the red-light-camera installers/managers decide to cut that time to increase infractions and increase revenue, they create situations where drivers think they are going to make it to the intersection in good time, but are surprised by the sooner-changing red light, so emergency-brake before the line. This causes accidents, including accidents where the car is pushed into the intersection and causes a rear-end then T-bone.
This invalid yellow-red light timing was revealed in some lawsuits about it.
I think the right solution is to maintain properly engineered timing, install cameras that also trigger a full video from multiple angles, and manually evaluate each positive and ticket only the egregious ones and have records of the violators who caused accidents.
But since the easy money is evidently too much of a temptation to fck with people, ban them all.
If we have the ability to ban things in this world, why don’t we ban the actual negative thing, not the potentially helpful thing that’s being abused?
As I understand it, Tesla auto driving (and, maybe, Waymo), have consistency issues with passing stopped school buses. Sometimes they stop, sometimes they don't.
But, what little I read about it, nothing from the photos or video show that the busses were actually signaling. A bus can stop, and you can pass it. When they embark children, they have to put their flashers on (or, back in the day on my busses, they had signals and a STOP sign that popped out from the driver side). When the flashers are running, that's when you are supposed to stop (both ways). Otherwise, it's just a bus on the side of the road.
"Both ways" depends on jurisdiction and the number of lanes. Most people here are ignorant of the actual rules.
I normally agree. However, this doesn't really automate the function like speed cameras or regular red-light cameras do. This still has police in the loop. The real problem is that it tickets owner and not driver.
While I acknowledge there is now a legality question around the use of "red light cameras". I have no sympathy for people who are not stopping for school busses: I can't stomach that the article frames this as "burden" on those driving past the bus.
"there’s evidence the program is heavily burdening residents who either can’t or don’t pay the fines."
Yeah, I also heard that from people until they got a ticket for that. Then they suddenly lawyer up rather than admit their guilt.
It's not just automated enforcement. It's the surveillance state we're sliding into.
> The footage is sent to local police for review. If they decide the law was broken, the driver receives a $250 ticket in the mail.
Where is the automation? This is no more automated than a speed camera or a parking camera. It's not even worthy of being called AI truth be told.
Traffic laws are underpoliced by orders of magnitude. Setting aside the general catastrophe which is car-centric (more like car-exclusive) design of our urban and suburban spaces. Technology gives us extremely cheap and easy ways to monitor traffic laws, much cheaper and much more reliable than having a cop roam around. The very least we can do is use it to make cars suck a bit less.
Unfortunately it sounds like this program is designed to maximize revenue for the private vendor, not make roads safer by changing driver behavior. The county is also using this surface-level fix as an excuse to avoid more fundamental road design changes that would actually improve safety for vulnerable road users.
Other automated enforcement mechanisms like average speed cameras and automated tolling are more effective at achieving their purported goals. Ultimately, enforcement will always be secondary to proper road design in both cost and effectiveness.
The speed camera that was found to shorten yellow lights to force more tickets? The flock camera that is used to stalk an ex? These are the cameras you love?
Traffic laws are usually arbitrary, victimless (or at least the perpetrator is the victim), and over-policed because they are revenue drivers and police job security. No crimes, no need for the police.
A bit off track from the main thrust of the article, but this caught my eye:
After falling for decades, annual pedestrian deaths in the US surged 70% from 2010 to 2023
That aligns suspiciously with the rise in smartphones.
It also aligns suspiciously with the decline of the sedan and the near-total victory of SUVs and pickup trucks in the American passenger vehicle market.
SUVs and pickups did not win anything in 2010, F-series trucks had been number one best seller through the entire 21st century, and the top 10 selling cars were half and half Camry/Civic/Accord and trucks and SUVs.
Good point. The missing statistic in this thread is the number of injuries, which you'd expect would help tease apart big cars (mass) from phones (attention).
And with SUVs, great combination.
Easily fixed with a cheap camera that records the inside of the car to a device similar to an airplane flight recorder. If we cared about people outside of cars more than people inside of cars. Funnily enough, the political will does not exist to even video record airplane pilots to the flight recorder, even after the numerous suicidal pilots in the last 30 years.
Another funny thing is to notice which people are politically acceptable to record, such as store clerks, warehouse workers, call center workers, basically anyone being paid on the lower end.
But the higher up the socioeconomic ladder you go, the less politically acceptable it is have your actions recorded, even just for scrutiny after an incident.
Also there being only 3 collisions since the program started in 2017. There are loads of violations but not many accidents. I'd wager most of the violations happen on the sort of road they mention, 4+ lanes maybe even with a turn lane, where kids are always dropped off on their side of the street so there's not actually kids trying to cross the opposing lanes anyways. [0] From the pictures I'm not entirely sure what the NC laws would say about this, probably stop, but I really doubt they're sending kids across the street there.
[0] In my state with 2+ lanes and a center turn you're not required to stop for example: https://www.ncdot.gov/dmv/license-id/driver-licenses/school-...
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2243986,-75.3069926,3a,75y,1...
I got one of these tickets here. The bus was obscured until it was already stopped, by a truck to my left. I was in the furthest possible lane. Very cool ~$380. (For further context, because like in principle I agree.)
Oh and for fun, if you follow that sidewalk down a bit, you get to see this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.2281192,-75.3123541,3a,75y,7...
The sidewalk... just... ends because I guess crossing a bridge wasn't in scope?? and I'd pretty regularly see people and kids walking across it to get to the strip mall on the other side.
You’d think they’d come up with a better system for a 7 lane highway but tickets for everyone instead!
I'm a little bit mixed after reading the article. I guess I don't entirely blame companies that see a financial opportunity to help enforce laws, as ostensibly, it should be win-win for both the public and private space. Where it breaks down (as the article points out), is when the law is ineffective at achieving it's purported goal. This is where I differ somewhat from the article's conclusion, however, as I view it as the government's responsibility at that point to correct the dysfunctional law. If all the evidence is there—do something about it. There might be a moral expectation that private companies "do the right thing", but there's certainly no practical expectation that will occur.
Case in point: where I live, the interstate is often congested, and a driver "camping" in the left lane frequently leads to traffic jams that back up for miles. The cars that get backed up become frustrated and start zooming and weaving through traffic in the right lanes to get past the blockage. And while there are plenty of police, they only go after the speeders (presumably because speeding tickets are more lucrative). I don't think I've ever seen someone pulled over for squatting in the left lane, despite the fact that it's illegal where I live and despite the presence of numerous signs that say "Keep Right Except to Past".
This is what I would call an example of a dysfunctional law, as I highly suspect that if one had the capability and interest to analyze aerial footage of traffic patterns, it would be found that left lane campers are a much more significant factor in the root cause of interstate traffic accidents than speeders. But the incentives are too perverse to fix the problem, so the situation persists.
Good. People who run school bus stops deserve to be ticketed and fined. This is one application of AI that’s being done right.
There’s a school bus. It’s big and yellow. The stop is shining and blinking. There’s kids about to cross the road. So yes, my sympathy for this sort of behavior is non existent.
I would think data on repeat offenders would be more useful than the overall number when seeing if the system is effective. Stricter penalties are likely to be more effective - the offenders are either choosing not to stop, or they aren't competent at paying attention, etc.
The existence of a credible threat of a fine for breaking the law is enough to dissuade nearly everyone from breaking it. Nobody respects speed limits when there's one in a gazillion chance that a cop actually pulls you over. If they know that if they go over the speed limit the camera WILL snap and they WILL cough up 250$, no chance about it, there's no one that will actually speed there.
"The existence of a credible threat of a fine for breaking the law is enough to dissuade nearly everyone from breaking it."
Yes, but they need to know that threat exists. If they arent aware the bus takes video and sends it to the police, then they don't see the threat. If they don't know you have to stop on a multi-lane road without a median, then they don't see the threat. That's why measuring repeat offenders could be a better signal than an overall number in a relatively short time.
As an aside, diplomats will gladly break laws with a $250 fine because they are largely immune. This is relevant as there are a fair amount in that region. So there are exceptions to your rule.
Recent Florida case prohibits cash-register justice tickets like this, ticketing vehicle owner and not the driver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ
So I need to add school busses to the list of spy platforms I go out of my way to avoid. Good to know.
The future :-p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz4HEEiJuGo
> the program is heavily burdening residents who either can’t or don’t pay the fines.
maybe they should stop driving dangerously
TDLR: If you read the article it's about school administration corrumption kickbacks and a dot com revenue scam where our tax dollars are wasted on a service that doesnt make kids safer. The tickets aren't the offensive part of this.
I have zero problems with this type of citation. From the description, it sounds like there’s a safety issue with some road markings that needs to be fixed and everyone who is not endangering young pedestrians would be happy.
My only problems are that it tickets the owner instead the driver, and the fine not appropriate. Instead of just a fine, they should probably make the violator (at least repeat violators) pass a subset of the driving test pertaining to laws on school busses (or drivers Ed, etc)
Yeah I don’t really know how to solve the first problem programmatically but the second problem is a major issue with our justice system in general.
Fines are only punishments for the lower economic class and do little to correct behavior.
The militant stop for schoolbus story grinds my gears. We don't stop for city buses. Why aren't we teaching children to be defensive and preparing them for the real world. Cross the road when there are no cars. Wait on the side of the road that the bus actually stops at. When a bus stops and I see a kid jump out the door and sprint full throttle in front of the bus and across the opposite lane without so much as a glance I think to myself yikes we are putting a lot of faith in people stopping for flashing red lights.
Fortunately drivers in my area (Detroit Metro) are all in a hurry and seem to want symbiosis with the rest of traffic. They stop and start almost instantly. Kids don't lolly gally. But when I lived in Northern Virginia, it was the opposite. Bus drivers really took liberty with blocking the road for WAY longer than necessary. Huge hall monitor energy, "i'm king of the castle i'll make you wait just to assert myself"
If your time is so important that you can't wait for kids to cross the street, get a helicopter.
I hope that all this surveilence in some kind twist of fate this will encourage micro-mobility and proper public transport because it becomes the only way to not have your unique identifiable ID across the entire nation in a database and not have fines every month as a normal every day expense.
But then surveilence companies will simply find a reason to start tracking the clothes people wear as 'signals' so it's just going to be less cars with more surveilence.
Might still be an upgrade over a unique id glued to you.
Look, I’m all in on public transit, I have straight up never had a drivers license in my 38 years on earth. That said, I pay for that shit by tapping my phone against a circle. They accept cash but I no longer work a tip-based job. They know where I got on and in some transit systems (not Chicago) you gotta tap to get out, as well. They got cameras on the bus and train pointed right at the spot where everyone’s face is as they get on. Public transit solves many problems, surveillance ain’t one of them.
In hindsight I forgot that all those systems are automated now. Where I live you can just walk in with no identification or payment and I guess I take that for granted. Of course if you get caught that's another problem, but even then you just renew your subscription and only show when checked.
I got popped in Berlin for like 80 euro or something. Imma buy those tickets from now on.