I'm not saying I'm for those over open source licenses in general, but Prusa brought up some fair questions when discussing the OCL. Essentially: define "personal use." Have I violated a non-commercial license if I print this keyboard and then use it to build someone a website? Does CC-NC mean a Prusacaster -- or any guitar knob with such a license for that matter -- is strictly barred from being taken on tour? Or used to record albums that are then sold? (And I say "guitar" knob, but I'm choosing an example a little consciously that could exist in any variety of controls, instrument and otherwise.)
Where are the lines of that when it's physical things? How far downstream does that go if it isn't CC-NC-SA in particular?
I'm not really sure that Creative Commons had the idea of physical production in mind, given that it dates back to a time when we were more broadly talking about digital piracy, and I honestly haven't kept up with its evolution much in more recent years. But maybe it just doesn't make the same sense for designs of physical things, for comparable reasons to why it wouldn't make sense for code -- and, conversely, open source projects that opt to use CC licenses for assets.
(None of this would stop me from attempting to build/mod one for fun, mind you. It just raises what a more averse person might call risks, and what I will at least call curiosities.)
Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
Now, what is interesting is if someone were to blatantly violate the license and start manufacturing commercial keyboards. I believe their only recourse would be to revoke their license of the design files, and then it would be copyright infringement. The thing is, I don't know how copyright law would handle any damages.
I don't know if making a physical product could be a violation of copyright, regardless of if you had a license to use the design in the first place. I could definitely imagine a company trying to enforce this, and a judge throwing it out because it should have been handled with patents.
Hasn’t Creative Commons disavowed or at least really downplayed the NC license for exactly these reasons? There are so many ambiguities and headaches involved that the only advice I’ve ever seen is not to use it.
I'd consider another Keychron (my first mechanical since a couple of AT and PS/2 Model M and variant devices I had years and years ago) and I like some stuff about it and definitely like the price, but would look for a model with a few differences next time and probably skip Keychron if I couldn't get all of these fixed in one of their boards:
1 - Longer battery life (I have a bluetooth + plug-in model). The battery life is crazy-low, even when not in use and the lights are turned off. I keep it plugged in all the time, as a result. I don't really get why it can't last, idle, about as long as a game controller does (many weeks! And those don't have much space for batteries).
2 - No light pattern button. That thing exists only to accidentally hit and switch it away from "gently and evenly lit" which is one of the very-few non-insane patterns available. Brush it by accident, there goes a minute or so of your time getting it back to something that's not trying to look like a disco ball. And it's right on the corner, so you will hit it by accident when moving the keyboard around or reaching for something just past it. Easily my least-favorite thing about the board, despite how bad the next item is.
3 - Mine has a kind of tray-design around the edge, resulting in about a 1/8" lip, that looks very cheap to assemble (so that's nice, lower price) but means it collects EVERYTHING out of the air and is a pain in the ass to clean. It also makes it look kinda like someone's 3D printed hobby project. Like it's an ugly keyboard, both because of the design and because it's visibly collecting dust and hair just a few days after its last keys-removed full cleaning.
Why do you like rhe 96% layout? I prefer the full space, recently upgraded to a Q6 Ultra, I’m really happy I can get a wireless version of most of their models these days.
Wider keyboards (with the space for arrow keys and number keys to the right) put extra strain on your right shoulder when you use the mouse in your right hand.
I've been using a narrow keyboard and ergonomic mouse for 2 weeks, and my shoulder pain is starting to go away.
I put a number pad on the left and it's much easier to key in numbers with my left hand instead of using my mouse with my left hand.
Not open source or open hardware, which they are pretty clear about.
> This project is source-available. Personal and educational use is allowed, and commercial use is allowed for compatible accessories. You may not copy and sell Keychron keyboards or mice [...].
It's awesome if you mod your own gear, and 3d printing / one off part services are ubiquitous, so if you see something you like online, it's cheap and easy to do little upgrades.
More companies should do what they do - the less ethical players are already cloning knockoffs anyways, stuff like this builds brand loyalty and probably makes it more likely that people stick with Keychron over going for the knockoffs.
I bought one too - most heavy and heavy duty keyboard I have ever owned.
I wanted to use it but it has one fatal flaw - the backlighting is unusable.
The keys it comes with are decent, but opaque, so the backlight doesn't actually illuminate the keys. And if you get shine-through keycaps, the LEDs are mounted below the center of the key instead of above, and you don't get good illumination.
sigh.
I used to use topre realforce rgb, then tried keychron, now use steelseries apex pro exclusively.
if they could fix it, giving me illuminated shine-through keys, I would go back to stay.
I have an IBM Model M, but after prolonged sessions of coding, my finger joints are aching. Are these Keychron keyboard have better switches or what are the experience using these mechanical ones?
Oh, does this involve their questionable kickstarter units with the cheap knockoff keys they refused to warranty or support, but were known faulty, and they swiftly replaced in store in the first 6 months? The ones that are pin incompatible with any other standard keys so you cant replace them? Yknow, the ones that mean I will never buy or recommend a keychron kb again?
The list of model numbers is clearly stated in the repo README and you’re apparently a subject matter expert on this; so, please look up the answer to your question and let us know.
On the source-available piece:
I'm not saying I'm for those over open source licenses in general, but Prusa brought up some fair questions when discussing the OCL. Essentially: define "personal use." Have I violated a non-commercial license if I print this keyboard and then use it to build someone a website? Does CC-NC mean a Prusacaster -- or any guitar knob with such a license for that matter -- is strictly barred from being taken on tour? Or used to record albums that are then sold? (And I say "guitar" knob, but I'm choosing an example a little consciously that could exist in any variety of controls, instrument and otherwise.)
Where are the lines of that when it's physical things? How far downstream does that go if it isn't CC-NC-SA in particular?
I'm not really sure that Creative Commons had the idea of physical production in mind, given that it dates back to a time when we were more broadly talking about digital piracy, and I honestly haven't kept up with its evolution much in more recent years. But maybe it just doesn't make the same sense for designs of physical things, for comparable reasons to why it wouldn't make sense for code -- and, conversely, open source projects that opt to use CC licenses for assets.
(None of this would stop me from attempting to build/mod one for fun, mind you. It just raises what a more averse person might call risks, and what I will at least call curiosities.)
Not a lawyer, but as I understand it the license is a matter of copyright, and the copyright only applies to the design files. So as long as you're making that keyboard for yourself then you should be good to do anything you want with the keyboard, because it is no longer using the license at that point.
Now, what is interesting is if someone were to blatantly violate the license and start manufacturing commercial keyboards. I believe their only recourse would be to revoke their license of the design files, and then it would be copyright infringement. The thing is, I don't know how copyright law would handle any damages.
I don't know if making a physical product could be a violation of copyright, regardless of if you had a license to use the design in the first place. I could definitely imagine a company trying to enforce this, and a judge throwing it out because it should have been handled with patents.
Again, not a lawyer, just speculating on a forum.
Hasn’t Creative Commons disavowed or at least really downplayed the NC license for exactly these reasons? There are so many ambiguities and headaches involved that the only advice I’ve ever seen is not to use it.
A Keychron has always been a great introduction for friends that want a good home desk setup without too much fuss.
I have stuck with the System76 Launch keyboard but I basically always consider Keychron first when looking.
I'd consider another Keychron (my first mechanical since a couple of AT and PS/2 Model M and variant devices I had years and years ago) and I like some stuff about it and definitely like the price, but would look for a model with a few differences next time and probably skip Keychron if I couldn't get all of these fixed in one of their boards:
1 - Longer battery life (I have a bluetooth + plug-in model). The battery life is crazy-low, even when not in use and the lights are turned off. I keep it plugged in all the time, as a result. I don't really get why it can't last, idle, about as long as a game controller does (many weeks! And those don't have much space for batteries).
2 - No light pattern button. That thing exists only to accidentally hit and switch it away from "gently and evenly lit" which is one of the very-few non-insane patterns available. Brush it by accident, there goes a minute or so of your time getting it back to something that's not trying to look like a disco ball. And it's right on the corner, so you will hit it by accident when moving the keyboard around or reaching for something just past it. Easily my least-favorite thing about the board, despite how bad the next item is.
3 - Mine has a kind of tray-design around the edge, resulting in about a 1/8" lip, that looks very cheap to assemble (so that's nice, lower price) but means it collects EVERYTHING out of the air and is a pain in the ass to clean. It also makes it look kinda like someone's 3D printed hobby project. Like it's an ugly keyboard, both because of the design and because it's visibly collecting dust and hair just a few days after its last keys-removed full cleaning.
I have a K2, and you can lock the lights with some key combination I don't remember and am too lazy to look up.
Wooting has done this already for many years: https://github.com/WootingKb/wooting-design
The Keychron K4/related (K4 HE here) compact 96% layout is definitely my favorite keyboard layout. Just a solid brick of keys.
Why do you like rhe 96% layout? I prefer the full space, recently upgraded to a Q6 Ultra, I’m really happy I can get a wireless version of most of their models these days.
Wider keyboards (with the space for arrow keys and number keys to the right) put extra strain on your right shoulder when you use the mouse in your right hand.
I've been using a narrow keyboard and ergonomic mouse for 2 weeks, and my shoulder pain is starting to go away.
I put a number pad on the left and it's much easier to key in numbers with my left hand instead of using my mouse with my left hand.
Second this. I was skeptical because I thought I was attached to the "heft" of a full layout, but the 96% is the best of both worlds.
Keychron just open-sourced their design files, which I didn’t expect.
I’m a happy user of their keyboards.
Not open source or open hardware, which they are pretty clear about.
> This project is source-available. Personal and educational use is allowed, and commercial use is allowed for compatible accessories. You may not copy and sell Keychron keyboards or mice [...].
It's awesome if you mod your own gear, and 3d printing / one off part services are ubiquitous, so if you see something you like online, it's cheap and easy to do little upgrades.
More companies should do what they do - the less ethical players are already cloning knockoffs anyways, stuff like this builds brand loyalty and probably makes it more likely that people stick with Keychron over going for the knockoffs.
Hah, I just bought the Q6. Seeing they released their design spec makes me much happier with the purchase!
I bought one too - most heavy and heavy duty keyboard I have ever owned.
I wanted to use it but it has one fatal flaw - the backlighting is unusable.
The keys it comes with are decent, but opaque, so the backlight doesn't actually illuminate the keys. And if you get shine-through keycaps, the LEDs are mounted below the center of the key instead of above, and you don't get good illumination.
sigh.
I used to use topre realforce rgb, then tried keychron, now use steelseries apex pro exclusively.
if they could fix it, giving me illuminated shine-through keys, I would go back to stay.
Love my Keychron Q1 Max. Awesome to see them open source their design files.
I have an IBM Model M, but after prolonged sessions of coding, my finger joints are aching. Are these Keychron keyboard have better switches or what are the experience using these mechanical ones?
The only problem I have with the Q6 Max are:
- It's way, way too heavy. Heavier than my Northgate Omnikey Ultra. Like it's more adept as an improvised weapon as much as any keyboard ever was.
- Didn't come with all black enter and escape caps (they were red orange), requiring purchasing an expensive complete replacement set.
Oh, does this involve their questionable kickstarter units with the cheap knockoff keys they refused to warranty or support, but were known faulty, and they swiftly replaced in store in the first 6 months? The ones that are pin incompatible with any other standard keys so you cant replace them? Yknow, the ones that mean I will never buy or recommend a keychron kb again?
No it's design files. Like CAD stuff.
Pretty sure @jhogendorn was being tongue-in-cheek to call out (semi-related) questionable behavior from Keychron.
The list of model numbers is clearly stated in the repo README and you’re apparently a subject matter expert on this; so, please look up the answer to your question and let us know.