Reminds me of Fly Away Home with the round fridge that would lift out of the counter. True story:
"The refrigerator is round, rising from under the granite countertop with the touch of the button.
It's a cool idea, and might be great for a secondary fridge. For a primary fridge though, it's so much more convenient to have direct access to everything through a vertical door. I like energy efficiency, but I'm willing to pay 300kWh a year (around $40 here) for that convenience, let alone the space efficiency.
Most people in dense urban areas would actually pay less. By going vertical you’re freezing a whole m2 that was otherwise necessarily occupied by the fridge. In most places, 300 kWh is much cheaper than an extra irrevocable m2 for your fridge.
Plus, a horizontal fridge is just… convenient. You can’t even put things on top of a vertical fridge.
They seem to have mixed up horizontal and vertical, and if they did, then my reading is that they're saying the cost of the extra floor space (and the loss of the "shelf" space on top of the fridge) when using a chest fridge makes the economics unfavourable for people in dense urban areas, even with the energy savings.
At least, I'm hoping that's what they meant. If they really meant horizontal and vertical in the way they used it then I've got no idea either.
Yeah, I understand your first sentence, but the last part of their comment was
"Plus, a horizontal fridge is just… convenient. You can’t even put things on top of a vertical fridge."
Don't they mean a horizontal fridge is a chest fridge? Which would make it sound like they want their whole comment to be in support of a chest fridge? Which is why none of it makes any sense to me.
That's what makes me think they've simply mixed up horizontal and vertical, because you can't (conveniently) store things on top of a chest fridge, but you can store things on top of a vertical fridge. Basically I think they've got a coherent point if you swap vertical and horizontal throughout their whole comment.
But if I put things on top of it, now I can't get at the food.
I mean, I have one of these as a meat freezer, and sometimes I put things on top of it, and then my wife gets mad at me and moves that thing somewhere because otherwise nobody can open it.
Things on top of my vertical fridge on the other hand (my cat for example), can stay there indefinitely.
If you completely remodeled a kitchen around a chest fridge it might not be too terribly inconvenient. But the major blocker is that virtually every kitchen is designed with a perfect spot for a tall, relatively shallow fridge.
It's inconvenient as soon as you need to get something from the bottom of the fridge, kitchen layout does not change this one at all. And I grew up in a home with multiple chest fridges in addition to a shelved ones so I know the hurdles.
They are good to store something you're not accessing all the time though, like frozen berries etc.
Yeah, my in-laws literally stand around the fridge with it open for multiple minutes while they shuffle food around to get to things they've tetrised into the back, and then to re-organize once they've gotten what they need.
They periodically live with us because they're quite old at this point, and my wife and I have already discussed replacing our fridge/freezer combo with a standalone fridge and switching solely to a chest freezer in the mudroom just so they stop doing this with the freezer, too.
The freezer is almost entirely for things already in boxes anyway. Frozen wontons, frozen ice cream cones, microwaveable meals, frozen blocks of fish. It's all easy to organize in a chest freezer.
I'd never considered a chest fridge before, and if I didn't have a wife and kids, as of today I'd be seriously considering it. As it is, can't trust kids not to make an inaccessible mess of something like that, and wife wouldn't like the kitchen arrangement becoming wonky. Though the fridge's current position makes it clear a previous owner didn't understand anything about kitchen layouts when they remodeled a MCM home.
Maybe I could put a chest fridge there with cabinetry above (gap between), and then some place we currently have cabinets all the way to the floor, remove the bottom and put in another chest fridge.
Might be something to consider once we've fixed all the supreme fuckups previous owners did.
I dispute the convenience, but I think the science has been tested. When you open a regular fridge, because cold air is denser than warm air, much of the cold air immediately falls out, so the fridge needs to work to re-chill the air once you close it. Even when it isn't opened, some amount of cold air leaks out the seals toward the bottom of the fridge (and warmer air leaks in through the top). Chest fridge (or freezer) solves these problems.
That said, most of the thermal mass in the fridge is the food, and after that probably the shelving, so as long as the seals aren't blown, the turnover of air on opening isn't a huge deal.
Its possible to design internal structures such that its easier to use as a Fridge and freezer with some loss of space to avoid having to reach down into it. It would waste space and some efficiency however, the more complicated it becomes with assisted lifting and such the worse the gap would become. But the problem is often space, a lot of kitchens do not have 2x the floor area to be putting in chests making them good for secondary storage somewhere else but not a primary kitchen appliance.
There is no doubt its better thermally just because cold air falls out the front of a normal fridge/freezer and huge amounts of energy are wasted everytime you open the door. A chest design looses considerably less of its cooled air but its also a lot more awkward to use and ends up less floor space efficient.
Perhaps the solution is to rethink the role of the fridge in the kitchen. It could be designed to be a part of a kitchen island, or have cabinets placed above it. In conventional kitchens, a chest does not make sense. But it could be well integrated if we start with the assumptions the fridge will be a chest.
This reminds me of the Technology Connections fridge rant video. Similar arguments all around, the dumping effect of cold out of a vertical fridge is pretty crazy to watch with a thermal camera.
I have a bad back and bending over hurts. Statistically it will also start to hurt you someday.
Even if we ignore the pain, there is no way to organize food in a chest freezer effectively. To reach items on the bottom one must remove all the food that sits above it. This wastes time and effort that could better be spent on other things. Meaning the opportunity cost is too high, even if it saves me money on electricity.
Yeah, we have a french door fridge with a lower drawer freezer, and even with that being split into an upper drawer maybe 8" deep, and a lower one ~12" deep. Everything but the top layer and maybe one layer under that, is where food goes to die. And that setup is vastly better at this all than a 30" deep chest, except that when you pull the drawer out, all the benefits of a chest are lost. So (nearly) the worst of both worlds.
It's more about freezers than fridges. Less frequent access and ton more work to get the temps back. I never thought about it but it was such an a-ha moment for me when I recently learned about it that I'm genuinely flabbergasted why it's not more popular.
What’s the possibility of turning such a device 45 degrees (or even 90)? Would it ruin anything? Because then you could stack two and it wouldn’t be so bad.
Makes sense if the drawers completely fill the volume of the fridge, so most of the air is inside the drawers and there is minimal air loss when the door opens. If the drawer fronts were insulated, each drawer would effectively be its own chest.
Edit: On a reread, I'm guessing you were talking about individual refrigerated drawers? Multiple drawers in a single insulated box (as I interpreted it) could work though, as it would have less exterior surface area, use less insulation for the same thermal resistance and useable volume and have a single cooling unit, which might be more efficient. It would also fit existing fridge alcoves.
If you designed around it, it would fit where existing kitchens have drawers, and the space typically reserved for a vertical fridge would be occupied by shelving. Kind of a neat idea. Microwave drawers are a thing.
I don't think so? The PDF includes "today (2009)", and also "started in 2004". It's been featured on HN before.. as far back as 2009. Unfortunately the archives first caught the (same) text in 2021, so that's not helpful.
Reminds me of Fly Away Home with the round fridge that would lift out of the counter. True story: "The refrigerator is round, rising from under the granite countertop with the touch of the button.
“The pneumatic fridge works with air compression,” she says. “You step on the button and it pops up and the racks spin like a lazy Susan. Cold air is heavy so it stays cold.”" https://www.thestar.com/life/home-and-garden/paula-lishman-a...
It's a cool idea, and might be great for a secondary fridge. For a primary fridge though, it's so much more convenient to have direct access to everything through a vertical door. I like energy efficiency, but I'm willing to pay 300kWh a year (around $40 here) for that convenience, let alone the space efficiency.
Most people in dense urban areas would actually pay less. By going vertical you’re freezing a whole m2 that was otherwise necessarily occupied by the fridge. In most places, 300 kWh is much cheaper than an extra irrevocable m2 for your fridge.
Plus, a horizontal fridge is just… convenient. You can’t even put things on top of a vertical fridge.
I put things on top of my vertical fridge all the time. Also, how do you access a chest fridge with items sitting on top of lid?
Did you by any chance switch "vertical" and "horizontal" at every point in your comment?
I literally don't understand this comment at all. What point are you trying to make?
They seem to have mixed up horizontal and vertical, and if they did, then my reading is that they're saying the cost of the extra floor space (and the loss of the "shelf" space on top of the fridge) when using a chest fridge makes the economics unfavourable for people in dense urban areas, even with the energy savings.
At least, I'm hoping that's what they meant. If they really meant horizontal and vertical in the way they used it then I've got no idea either.
Yeah, I understand your first sentence, but the last part of their comment was
"Plus, a horizontal fridge is just… convenient. You can’t even put things on top of a vertical fridge."
Don't they mean a horizontal fridge is a chest fridge? Which would make it sound like they want their whole comment to be in support of a chest fridge? Which is why none of it makes any sense to me.
That's what makes me think they've simply mixed up horizontal and vertical, because you can't (conveniently) store things on top of a chest fridge, but you can store things on top of a vertical fridge. Basically I think they've got a coherent point if you swap vertical and horizontal throughout their whole comment.
But if I put things on top of it, now I can't get at the food.
I mean, I have one of these as a meat freezer, and sometimes I put things on top of it, and then my wife gets mad at me and moves that thing somewhere because otherwise nobody can open it.
Things on top of my vertical fridge on the other hand (my cat for example), can stay there indefinitely.
If you completely remodeled a kitchen around a chest fridge it might not be too terribly inconvenient. But the major blocker is that virtually every kitchen is designed with a perfect spot for a tall, relatively shallow fridge.
It's inconvenient as soon as you need to get something from the bottom of the fridge, kitchen layout does not change this one at all. And I grew up in a home with multiple chest fridges in addition to a shelved ones so I know the hurdles.
They are good to store something you're not accessing all the time though, like frozen berries etc.
I think that inconvenience could be manageable depending on how full the fridge is and what sort of organizing features it has.
It’s already pretty inconvenient to get something out of the back of a traditional fridge that is completely full.
Yeah, my in-laws literally stand around the fridge with it open for multiple minutes while they shuffle food around to get to things they've tetrised into the back, and then to re-organize once they've gotten what they need.
They periodically live with us because they're quite old at this point, and my wife and I have already discussed replacing our fridge/freezer combo with a standalone fridge and switching solely to a chest freezer in the mudroom just so they stop doing this with the freezer, too.
The freezer is almost entirely for things already in boxes anyway. Frozen wontons, frozen ice cream cones, microwaveable meals, frozen blocks of fish. It's all easy to organize in a chest freezer.
I'd never considered a chest fridge before, and if I didn't have a wife and kids, as of today I'd be seriously considering it. As it is, can't trust kids not to make an inaccessible mess of something like that, and wife wouldn't like the kitchen arrangement becoming wonky. Though the fridge's current position makes it clear a previous owner didn't understand anything about kitchen layouts when they remodeled a MCM home.
Maybe I could put a chest fridge there with cabinetry above (gap between), and then some place we currently have cabinets all the way to the floor, remove the bottom and put in another chest fridge.
Might be something to consider once we've fixed all the supreme fuckups previous owners did.
Indeed. I could imagine a very neat one built into the cabinetry where the counter top could be lifted up or something.
It would be inconvenient to have to clear the counter each time you want to access the fridge.
I keep my counters largely clear so I can cook, anyway.
Cool idea indeed.
Ohhh the links at the bottom of this guys site are wild and good reading.
https://thiaoouba.com/
Please note I am disputing his science on the efficacy of a vertical fridge.
I dispute the convenience, but I think the science has been tested. When you open a regular fridge, because cold air is denser than warm air, much of the cold air immediately falls out, so the fridge needs to work to re-chill the air once you close it. Even when it isn't opened, some amount of cold air leaks out the seals toward the bottom of the fridge (and warmer air leaks in through the top). Chest fridge (or freezer) solves these problems.
That said, most of the thermal mass in the fridge is the food, and after that probably the shelving, so as long as the seals aren't blown, the turnover of air on opening isn't a huge deal.
Its possible to design internal structures such that its easier to use as a Fridge and freezer with some loss of space to avoid having to reach down into it. It would waste space and some efficiency however, the more complicated it becomes with assisted lifting and such the worse the gap would become. But the problem is often space, a lot of kitchens do not have 2x the floor area to be putting in chests making them good for secondary storage somewhere else but not a primary kitchen appliance.
There is no doubt its better thermally just because cold air falls out the front of a normal fridge/freezer and huge amounts of energy are wasted everytime you open the door. A chest design looses considerably less of its cooled air but its also a lot more awkward to use and ends up less floor space efficient.
Perhaps the solution is to rethink the role of the fridge in the kitchen. It could be designed to be a part of a kitchen island, or have cabinets placed above it. In conventional kitchens, a chest does not make sense. But it could be well integrated if we start with the assumptions the fridge will be a chest.
Refrigerated drawers in islands are definitely a thing in high end kitchens. But you typically have a large conventional fridge as well.
This reminds me of the Technology Connections fridge rant video. Similar arguments all around, the dumping effect of cold out of a vertical fridge is pretty crazy to watch with a thermal camera.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=CGAhWgkKlHI
Couldn't find that in the 26 minute video. But for a total energy cost of $70 per year, why is this of interest to anyone?
Because I have more vertical space in my kitchen than I got horizontal one.
Why?
a: space.
A standup fridge freezer is floor space efficient.
How much rent is the chest freezer using per year :)
Made up numbers 10k for 1000sqft
10 per sq ft
So say $40 a year in rent. Still not too bad I guess
$800 a month for rent is pretty good
I have a bad back and bending over hurts. Statistically it will also start to hurt you someday.
Even if we ignore the pain, there is no way to organize food in a chest freezer effectively. To reach items on the bottom one must remove all the food that sits above it. This wastes time and effort that could better be spent on other things. Meaning the opportunity cost is too high, even if it saves me money on electricity.
Yeah, we have a french door fridge with a lower drawer freezer, and even with that being split into an upper drawer maybe 8" deep, and a lower one ~12" deep. Everything but the top layer and maybe one layer under that, is where food goes to die. And that setup is vastly better at this all than a 30" deep chest, except that when you pull the drawer out, all the benefits of a chest are lost. So (nearly) the worst of both worlds.
Just have to make it either easy to buy or easy to mod and emphasize energy savings and lots of people would be interested
Edit: looks like a few chest freezers have a "fridge" setting, which sounds like the easiest way to do this for those interested (maybe)
Modern refrigerators are designed for browsing. A chest fridge could save a person a lot of calories over time
By that logic, best fridge is no fridge at all ;)
It's more about freezers than fridges. Less frequent access and ton more work to get the temps back. I never thought about it but it was such an a-ha moment for me when I recently learned about it that I'm genuinely flabbergasted why it's not more popular.
What’s the possibility of turning such a device 45 degrees (or even 90)? Would it ruin anything? Because then you could stack two and it wouldn’t be so bad.
No.
Drawers.
Makes sense if the drawers completely fill the volume of the fridge, so most of the air is inside the drawers and there is minimal air loss when the door opens. If the drawer fronts were insulated, each drawer would effectively be its own chest.
Edit: On a reread, I'm guessing you were talking about individual refrigerated drawers? Multiple drawers in a single insulated box (as I interpreted it) could work though, as it would have less exterior surface area, use less insulation for the same thermal resistance and useable volume and have a single cooling unit, which might be more efficient. It would also fit existing fridge alcoves.
If you designed around it, it would fit where existing kitchens have drawers, and the space typically reserved for a vertical fridge would be occupied by shelving. Kind of a neat idea. Microwave drawers are a thing.
+1
waist level, some below countertops, some above a freezer drawer. humidity settings.
(2009)
he mentions inverter freezers at the end so it must have been updated more recently
I don't think so? The PDF includes "today (2009)", and also "started in 2004". It's been featured on HN before.. as far back as 2009. Unfortunately the archives first caught the (same) text in 2021, so that's not helpful.
rcfox's criticism from 2009 still stands (6 points, 2 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=865991