the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart.
it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes.
the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change.
All those people using typescript (could be using Java - but the culture doesn't want them and consider them heretics for not embracing religion of OOP and FactoryFactory)
After ~13 years of working with C#, I moved to Kotlin. It's such a beautiful language. When I have to read docs for a Java lib I realize why I like Kotlin.
I want to say culture around Java doesn't have to change, new culture is growing around succinctness (if not simplicity) of Kotlin, and it gets most of the benefits of Java ecosystem.
What do you mean by "better than Go for industry purposes"?
I don't understand what "industry purposes" means and in what aspects Java is better than Go in your opinion (I can think of some myself, but I'm interested in your perspective).
I didn't use Java since 7, but from people that do - nowadays you basically don't code Java, you code Spring Boot. And that has all the bad things you think when people say "Java".
There are more Java devs than people in my home country. Like how could you even give a single description for all of them? They all work on vastly different stuff, from low-latency trading to robotics, to regular old CRUD. Not even the CRUD part is as monotonic though as you make it out to be.
There's a lot of programming that has nothing to do with SpringBoot - and I say this as someone who works in a backend team that uses SpringBoot for all our apps.
A completely different culture of Java usage can and does exist a lot of places. It is absolutely true that success creates a certain ossification of practice. But SpringBoot is not necessary, any more than Guice or any other framework-y thing.
Glad to see this being removed. Java plugins especially on Linux were awful and required by tons of corporate stuff. Anyone remeber IcedTea Web? A functional and opensource Java plugin and Java Webstart implementation?
I made several Webstart corporate apps back in the day! The infrastructure was pretty neat, when it worked. And it was a whole lot better than JS back then, still in the IE6 times.
As someone who has been out of the Java world for many years, but recently forced back into it due to Android dev requirements, Post lawsuit, what is the relationship between Android (Google) and Java now? When can we expect 26 on Android? On that note, why is Android always so far behind? Is it because Kotlin is primary or is it deeper? Did the lawsuit play a role?
Android has their own runtime (creatively named as Android runtime), which does not run java byte code, but their own binary format. JVM class files can be compiled to that format, but the support for that always lags behind OpenJDK java versions.
Part of the reason kotlin became the de facto language on the platform was that they supported only terribly old Java at the time, that didn't even have lambdas even though it was already out.
The problem is that most of the Java libraries want to follow the desktop/server, aka the OpenJDK scene, but that would make them incompatible with Android so there was/is some incentives to bump up the version they support.
I was pretty surprised when I learned recently that the Java alternative for green threads doesn't use colored functions. It put Java in a higher place in my perception.
Any time you have a barrier between one function being able to call another. The original article on this called them red functions and green functions. A green function can call a red function but a red function can't call a green function.
In terms of async, it's when you have to have a function with "async" attached to it and making it so that only other async functions can call async functions.
It ends up creating a weird circumstance where you can end up with a lot of duplicated APIs, particularly in libraries, because you are providing both async and non-async versions of functions.
The term comes from an old blog post [0] about different kinds of effect systems. Every function has a color, and every colored function can only call functions that are compatible with it, usually of the same color. The net result is that you end up either duplicating a lot of your common code so you have compatible interfaces for all the different colors (let's call that "separate but equal" if we're feeling spicy), or you end up shoving round pegs into the square holes of your dominant function color.
The terminology is used to talk about languages that have async and sync functions where you declare (or color) the function as either async or sync.
In these languages it's pretty common for the language to enforce a constraint that async functions can only call other async functions. Javascript / Typescript, Python are popular examples of languages with colored functions.
"green threads" is generally how I see these systems identify as "non-colored but with async-like performance" fwiw. or "fibers". otherwise it's "async" or "coroutines".
There are different types of coroutines. The C++ type are sometimes called "stackless coroutines". With stackless coroutines you can't yield from a nested function call. Stackless coroutines are basically generators where you can pass arguments through resume, and async/await is effectively a form of stackless coroutines with yield/resume semantics that aren't fully generalized as coroutines, but oriented toward some bespoke notion of concurrency rather than as an abstract control flow operator.
"Stackful coroutines" allow yielding from any arbitrary point. They're basically fibers, except with the explicit control transfer and value passing yield and resume operators; there's no hidden control transfer like with green threads.
Stackless coroutines are typically implemented as a special kind of function whose state is allocated and instantiated by the caller. In contrast, stackful coroutines are typically implemented by reifying the stack, similar to threads. The "stack" may or not be the same as the system's ABI stack.
In stackful coroutines, unless there are additional typing constraints imposed by the language for hygiene reasons, any function can typically be called as a coroutine or use yield and resume. There's no need to compile functions into special alternative forms as call frame management works the same whether invoked from a coroutine context or not.
I think astronomers could measure the age of the universe in nano-Valhallas. Every year, it feels 50% closer to completion...
In all seriousness I'm happy with what Mr. Goetz and the team have done. Sealed interfaces (java 17) + exhaustive switch statements (java 21) means we now have union types in java! And instead of jumping on the async/await bandwagon we now have a more general solution that doesn't lead to API duplication (virtual threads). But Valhalla has been a veeery long time coming.
'Tis true. At the same time, Project Valhalla will be the most significant change to the JVM in a very long time, and probably its best chance to stay relevant in the future.
When it was about the 7th incubator iteration, I got curious so I read the actual JEP history, and it had this informative tidbit, also included in the latest release:
"The Vector API will incubate until necessary features of Project Valhalla become available as preview features. At that time, we will adapt the Vector API and its implementation to use them and then promote the Vector API from incubation to preview."
Project Valhalla has been "in progress" for at least a decade now (Wikipedia say 2014). So who knows when we'll actually see a Vector API in preview.
Google basically played a J++ with Android Java, with Kotlin as their .NET/C#.
At least they are forced to partially update Android Java, now Java 17 subset, so that Kotlin can keep up with was is mostly deployed at Maven Central.
Pretty sure they did a J# ;). But I agree that Kotlin is their C#.
The JDK and JVM has advanced so fast while android has been lagging. It's pretty frustrating, especially because google has been so slow to pull in changes from later java versions.
A part of me wishes that android would just dump their hokey dalvik, ART, and other BS and just use the OpenJDK or a fork of the OpenJDK with whatever special sauce they need. A lot of the project Leyden stuff lends itself nicely to maybe someday being able to run real java on android.
Edit: Apparently android is forking OpenJDK, since Android 7.
J# was the transition product to port J++ into .NET, I am quite sure.
Not only I was there on those years, my employer was a MSFT partner that got to test .NET before it was announced to the world, so that we could have our products as part of the announcement event in Portugal.
OpenJDK is cherry picked, Google only picks pieces of it, rather than full compatibility.
Correct, and J# was a brief transition language to help migrate Visual J++ applications onto the .Net SDK. J++ -> J# -> C# was the evolution.
I say J# is a more apt comparison because like Microsoft's Java, android has a substantial set of APIs that aren't part of the JDK standard. Working on Java vs Anrdoid is practically like working with the JDK vs .Net.
It isn't, check Gerrit commit history, they only take bits and pieces, plus ART doesn't do all bytecode equivalents. Some JVM bytecode don't have counterparts in Dex, rather get desugared into multiple instructions.
No, they didn't. Google happily used regular Java until Oracle played Oracle. Then Google stopped updating the supported Java language version and started diversifying away from Java.
They definitely did not, it was Android Java from day one, and Oracle should have crushed them like Sun did to Microsoft, unfortunately Google was the geek darling of do not evil, thus they got a pass from fanboys.
Android was not 100% compatible with Java, but mostly because it had a specialized environment. It did not support things like dynamic bytecode generation, but it faithfully reproduced pretty much everything else that made sense.
And yeah, it would have been so much better with Oracle(tm)(r)(c)(fuckyou) running Android with Pure Java(tm)(r)(c)(screwyou) instead. Now with EJB5 and more XML!
You might be too young to remember, but SunOracle essentially abandoned the Java language development for more than a decade, until Kotlin provided a very much needed magic kick.
Oh, and if you think _Google_ is bad for splitting the Java ecosystem, let me introduce you to J2ME and JavaCard.
the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart.
it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes.
the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change.
All those people using typescript (could be using Java - but the culture doesn't want them and consider them heretics for not embracing religion of OOP and FactoryFactory)
After ~13 years of working with C#, I moved to Kotlin. It's such a beautiful language. When I have to read docs for a Java lib I realize why I like Kotlin.
I want to say culture around Java doesn't have to change, new culture is growing around succinctness (if not simplicity) of Kotlin, and it gets most of the benefits of Java ecosystem.
What do you mean by "better than Go for industry purposes"?
I don't understand what "industry purposes" means and in what aspects Java is better than Go in your opinion (I can think of some myself, but I'm interested in your perspective).
"a solid foundation for the future" is faint praise for a language that has been around for over thirty years.
> It has become a best of breed language
To me it lags significantly behind .net (runtime) and C#/F# (language). I don't see Java catching-up.
They trade blows, and have different philosophies (complex runtime, simpler language vs the reverse).
E.g. on the GC side Java is ahead of any other platform, especially with the low-latency ZGC garbage collector.
I didn't use Java since 7, but from people that do - nowadays you basically don't code Java, you code Spring Boot. And that has all the bad things you think when people say "Java".
I don't know if it's true though.
There are more Java devs than people in my home country. Like how could you even give a single description for all of them? They all work on vastly different stuff, from low-latency trading to robotics, to regular old CRUD. Not even the CRUD part is as monotonic though as you make it out to be.
There's a lot of programming that has nothing to do with SpringBoot - and I say this as someone who works in a backend team that uses SpringBoot for all our apps.
You're talking to specific people.
A completely different culture of Java usage can and does exist a lot of places. It is absolutely true that success creates a certain ossification of practice. But SpringBoot is not necessary, any more than Guice or any other framework-y thing.
JEP 504: Remove the Applet API
Glad to see this being removed. Java plugins especially on Linux were awful and required by tons of corporate stuff. Anyone remeber IcedTea Web? A functional and opensource Java plugin and Java Webstart implementation?
Remember IcedTea Web? Oh boy, I still have environments that use it.
I made several Webstart corporate apps back in the day! The infrastructure was pretty neat, when it worked. And it was a whole lot better than JS back then, still in the IE6 times.
As someone who has been out of the Java world for many years, but recently forced back into it due to Android dev requirements, Post lawsuit, what is the relationship between Android (Google) and Java now? When can we expect 26 on Android? On that note, why is Android always so far behind? Is it because Kotlin is primary or is it deeper? Did the lawsuit play a role?
Java's primary development happens on OpenJDK.
Android has their own runtime (creatively named as Android runtime), which does not run java byte code, but their own binary format. JVM class files can be compiled to that format, but the support for that always lags behind OpenJDK java versions.
Part of the reason kotlin became the de facto language on the platform was that they supported only terribly old Java at the time, that didn't even have lambdas even though it was already out.
The problem is that most of the Java libraries want to follow the desktop/server, aka the OpenJDK scene, but that would make them incompatible with Android so there was/is some incentives to bump up the version they support.
Does the Java team use AI? If not, they should use it to give us more features and better performance in a release.
I was pretty surprised when I learned recently that the Java alternative for green threads doesn't use colored functions. It put Java in a higher place in my perception.
No need of colored functions because that Java green thread returns a Future<Value> not Value like colored functions
What are colored functions?
Any time you have a barrier between one function being able to call another. The original article on this called them red functions and green functions. A green function can call a red function but a red function can't call a green function.
In terms of async, it's when you have to have a function with "async" attached to it and making it so that only other async functions can call async functions.
It ends up creating a weird circumstance where you can end up with a lot of duplicated APIs, particularly in libraries, because you are providing both async and non-async versions of functions.
The term comes from an old blog post [0] about different kinds of effect systems. Every function has a color, and every colored function can only call functions that are compatible with it, usually of the same color. The net result is that you end up either duplicating a lot of your common code so you have compatible interfaces for all the different colors (let's call that "separate but equal" if we're feeling spicy), or you end up shoving round pegs into the square holes of your dominant function color.
[0] https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-...
https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-...
The terminology is used to talk about languages that have async and sync functions where you declare (or color) the function as either async or sync.
In these languages it's pretty common for the language to enforce a constraint that async functions can only call other async functions. Javascript / Typescript, Python are popular examples of languages with colored functions.
https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-...
In this context: functions anotated with async
Are you perhaps confusing green threads with stackless async models, like async/await? Green threads don't imply colored functions.
They said "Java alternative for green threads" so they're talking about not green threads.
"green threads" is generally how I see these systems identify as "non-colored but with async-like performance" fwiw. or "fibers". otherwise it's "async" or "coroutines".
There are different types of coroutines. The C++ type are sometimes called "stackless coroutines". With stackless coroutines you can't yield from a nested function call. Stackless coroutines are basically generators where you can pass arguments through resume, and async/await is effectively a form of stackless coroutines with yield/resume semantics that aren't fully generalized as coroutines, but oriented toward some bespoke notion of concurrency rather than as an abstract control flow operator.
"Stackful coroutines" allow yielding from any arbitrary point. They're basically fibers, except with the explicit control transfer and value passing yield and resume operators; there's no hidden control transfer like with green threads.
Stackless coroutines are typically implemented as a special kind of function whose state is allocated and instantiated by the caller. In contrast, stackful coroutines are typically implemented by reifying the stack, similar to threads. The "stack" may or not be the same as the system's ABI stack.
In stackful coroutines, unless there are additional typing constraints imposed by the language for hygiene reasons, any function can typically be called as a coroutine or use yield and resume. There's no need to compile functions into special alternative forms as call frame management works the same whether invoked from a coroutine context or not.
I think astronomers could measure the age of the universe in nano-Valhallas. Every year, it feels 50% closer to completion...
In all seriousness I'm happy with what Mr. Goetz and the team have done. Sealed interfaces (java 17) + exhaustive switch statements (java 21) means we now have union types in java! And instead of jumping on the async/await bandwagon we now have a more general solution that doesn't lead to API duplication (virtual threads). But Valhalla has been a veeery long time coming.
'Tis true. At the same time, Project Valhalla will be the most significant change to the JVM in a very long time, and probably its best chance to stay relevant in the future.
Ah , Java, a language I pray I never have to ever touch again.
Vector API (Eleventh Incubator) - maybe 11th time’s the charm.
When it was about the 7th incubator iteration, I got curious so I read the actual JEP history, and it had this informative tidbit, also included in the latest release:
"The Vector API will incubate until necessary features of Project Valhalla become available as preview features. At that time, we will adapt the Vector API and its implementation to use them and then promote the Vector API from incubation to preview."
Project Valhalla has been "in progress" for at least a decade now (Wikipedia say 2014). So who knows when we'll actually see a Vector API in preview.
On the other hand, there is a bunch of movement on Valhalla side nowadays. You can download a build and try out value types yourself!
Android as always in shambles. Shame that neither Google, nor ecosystem cares about Java because they’ve bought JetBrains kopium.
Google basically played a J++ with Android Java, with Kotlin as their .NET/C#.
At least they are forced to partially update Android Java, now Java 17 subset, so that Kotlin can keep up with was is mostly deployed at Maven Central.
Pretty sure they did a J# ;). But I agree that Kotlin is their C#.
The JDK and JVM has advanced so fast while android has been lagging. It's pretty frustrating, especially because google has been so slow to pull in changes from later java versions.
A part of me wishes that android would just dump their hokey dalvik, ART, and other BS and just use the OpenJDK or a fork of the OpenJDK with whatever special sauce they need. A lot of the project Leyden stuff lends itself nicely to maybe someday being able to run real java on android.
Edit: Apparently android is forking OpenJDK, since Android 7.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Nougat
J# was the transition product to port J++ into .NET, I am quite sure.
Not only I was there on those years, my employer was a MSFT partner that got to test .NET before it was announced to the world, so that we could have our products as part of the announcement event in Portugal.
OpenJDK is cherry picked, Google only picks pieces of it, rather than full compatibility.
J++ predates C#. It was Microsoft's version of Java that wasn't quite compatible.
Correct, and J# was a brief transition language to help migrate Visual J++ applications onto the .Net SDK. J++ -> J# -> C# was the evolution.
I say J# is a more apt comparison because like Microsoft's Java, android has a substantial set of APIs that aren't part of the JDK standard. Working on Java vs Anrdoid is practically like working with the JDK vs .Net.
J++ already had those extensions, hence the lawsuit.
Do you think it's legal reasons, technical reasons, NIH syndrome, or some other reason why Android doesn't use OpenJDK?
A little bit of all of the above.
Android's usage of Java started right as Sun was being acquired by oracle and right before the jdk was GPLed.
... And I'll be. Apparently Android is using the OpenJDK since Android 7. [1]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Nougat
It isn't, check Gerrit commit history, they only take bits and pieces, plus ART doesn't do all bytecode equivalents. Some JVM bytecode don't have counterparts in Dex, rather get desugared into multiple instructions.
That's a proper late 90s reference, props!
> Google basically played a J++ with Android Java
No, they didn't. Google happily used regular Java until Oracle played Oracle. Then Google stopped updating the supported Java language version and started diversifying away from Java.
They definitely did not, it was Android Java from day one, and Oracle should have crushed them like Sun did to Microsoft, unfortunately Google was the geek darling of do not evil, thus they got a pass from fanboys.
Android was not 100% compatible with Java, but mostly because it had a specialized environment. It did not support things like dynamic bytecode generation, but it faithfully reproduced pretty much everything else that made sense.
And yeah, it would have been so much better with Oracle(tm)(r)(c)(fuckyou) running Android with Pure Java(tm)(r)(c)(screwyou) instead. Now with EJB5 and more XML!
You might be too young to remember, but SunOracle essentially abandoned the Java language development for more than a decade, until Kotlin provided a very much needed magic kick.
Oh, and if you think _Google_ is bad for splitting the Java ecosystem, let me introduce you to J2ME and JavaCard.
I wouldn’t blame Google for Oracle being a lawnmower.