People say things like "don't expect to do hardcore content creation on these" (Ars Technica)
We used to do hardcore content creation on Intel processors and spinning hard drives that were way shittier. Heck even my M1 still 100% suffices for everything I wanna do.
Haha. I edited tv shows back in the very early days of digital non-linear editing on a Mac Quadra 840AV with 80MB of RAM and 40/80MHz 68040 processor and a RAID made up of 4 x 9GB SCSI drives, with a coprocessor board that people wouldn’t consider sufficient for editing gifs with now. We did After Effects rendering with similar gear … my first job was restarting after effects after it would crash part way through a render (go back a few frames and start again).
I bought an 16e last week with the same chipset, just tested and it handles realtime recording of 4k at 60fps with HEVC (camera is "48mp" so the source is 8k camera source material).
Pretty sure most of the encoding/decoding of video is handled with special circuits these days.
Now, add enough layers and it'll probably falter, but with dedicated encoding/decoding circuits combined with a modern GPU it will definetly be a usable experience with some lower res quick pre-renders at worst but probably realtime for most content creator usages.
Content creation also used to mean writing novels by hand and stitching pixel art. You can do basically anything imaginable before 2010 in terms of creation (which is... basically anything worth mentioning?) before running into video as the bottleneck. Probably closer to 2020.
The first professional commercial 4K camera came out over 23 years ago, and the first smartphones and camcorders capable of 4K video were back in 2013.
The Macbook Neo has a 2.5x higher multi-core Geekbench score compared to the i7-4960X's, the top consumer CPU of 2013 (which could handle 4K video editing in h264), and its single-core performance is 5x higher. Plus, I'm 99% sure the MacBook Neo has a dedicated video decoding ASIC anyway.
Meanwhile I guarantee sitting on a university campus I’m going to see a sea of these colours sitting on desks and tables by people putting in some serious work.
In this age of price hikes on components and hardware, this is Apple’s “price heard around the world” like they were on stage at E3 in 1995.[1]
Ironically they pulled it off with Sony’s worst price at an announcement… five hundred and ninety-nine US dollars.
>We used to do hardcore content creation on Intel processors and spinning hard drives that were way shittier.
We also used to work fields with our backs and hands, but that doesn't mean we should still do that today when John Deere exists.
I also did my engineering masters on a core 2 duo with 2 GB of RAM, but if I had money i would have definitely preferred something a lot better like an i7 with 8gb of RAM so I wouldn't be constantly hitting the spinning rust SWAP.
My point is, this shouldn't turn into a competition on who suffered the most, doing the most amount of labor with the shittiest possible potato PC, like its happening in the comments right now, as none of these anecdotes proves powerful modern computers aren't useful today.
The Neo is incredibly executed by Apple, and one they must have been planning for for years: to be able to create a machine this good at this price. I wouldn't be surprised if it dramatically reshapes the laptop industry.
Spec-wise, this is as good as an M1-M2 Air, which is already an over-powered device for most non-professionals. All the "compromises" they made, like no center stage in the camera, less ports, only one monitor support, "just WiFi 6E", and others, are all non-issues for a typical average consumers.
And the price is the best it could be. At $499 for students, in a year's time when Gen2 is released, you will find a new Gen1 at possibly $399, and a refurbished Gen1 at even less. I don't see why anyone who wants an "entry-level/starter laptop" would buy anything but a Neo. We already are in a world in which average people don't need specific Windows-only apps. Most common apps are either cross-platform or web-based.
Dell, HP and alike are lucky that they're being enamored with datacenter server demand. I expect them to shift-away from the consumer laptop market and focus more on the enterprise in the coming years, which could have negative consequences for their pro-lineups.
Had similar thoughts until googling what the cheapest Chromebook on Amazon costs: $139.
I’d still get a Neo and for students it’s probably the right choice - chromebooks are just a browsers after all.
But pricing wise this laptop is a decade too late. The netbook of the day (chromebooks?) are just unbelievably cheap.
Apple will still sell millions of these and keep on eating up market share.
Agreed! For the longest time, I feel like for most "regular" people (mostly used for web browsing, communication and light gaming) the choice between windows and Mac has mostly come down to price. I feel like this is the first attempt by Apple to disrupt this segmentation and take a stab at the mass market as well.
I'm kind of surprised there has been so much talk about benchmarks. The CPU is probably the single strongest part of the product. The RAM and SSD are clearly going to be limiting factors for a lot of people, but they're not crazy, they're reasonable minimums for a budget device. If you're thinking about performance this device just really isn't for you.
I was skeptical at first, but that's because this is not for me but does have many other use cases. MKBHD video[0] covers it aptly. Great as a higher-end 'chromebook' etc. Could be an upgrade for my Surface Go 3 but not as portable. Definitely more useful than a tablet.
I'm sold. My wife is a teacher(refuses to use a chromebook because they suck, or an Ipad because data input sucks). She'll be getting one of these. Kids probably will too. I'm having a really hard time finding another laptop on the market the hits the "i use gmail, and gdocs, and some other webapps all day" demographic so well.
Plenty of devices with limited RAM existed before this and we didn't see devs cater to them. I highly doubt this temporary spike in memory prices is going to cause a long lasting change in behavior.
I know it is not the target use case this, but I have been thinking more and more about how this could serve a need of a terminal or a kiosk computer in a scenario where a tablet may not be the most suitable due to the need for a full keyboard.
I use an iPad mounted to an arm in the kitchen for cooking but always had issues whenever I needed to modify a recipe (or add a note for later modification), I am debating on switching it out for a Neo. Possibly some other use cases of a permanent computer in places that a tablet worked but a full computer would be far more flexible.
I just first need to find an arm that would be rock solid enough to not wobble a ton while typing, if anyone has any recommendations.
The Walmart outlet on eBay is selling refurb M1s for $380, I think that's still a better deal not just because it's cheaper but you get Touch ID, a better screen, and dual Thunderbolt ports. Backlit keyboard too!
I was thinking the same but then I looked at what I could get for 70000 INR on Amazon and it would be crazy to buy this over the alternatives. What is the draw for this device given the price?
If you've tried some of those cheap PC laptops the build quality is no where near macbooks (even for laptops twice the price). Macs tend to live a long time and retain their resale value like crazy compared to PCs too.
I bought a macbook pro m1 pro. Its value is 25% in 4/5 years. I bought a second hand dell latitude 7/8 years ago, it was 3/4 years old then. Still running as a server today. A cheap acer bought in 2017 runs almalinux and is surprisingly fast and capable today, I had upgraded ram and put in nvme SSD long back.
Ive owned a lot of macs and PCs over the last 15-20 years (many of them from work so i didnt "own" them but i used them daily), the % of pc laptops that have technical/hardware issues is way higher than macs in my experience. Of course YMMV with either.
If you are satisfied with the build quality and general longevity of an Acer computer then you are wasting your time trying to understand a huge comparative advantage of the Neo. I’d just accept that you aren’t the market and move on.
Yeah, I guess so. I was just wondering when people said it's great value, is it because they believe that the build quality (all metal) is the most important factor here. But then I can get an HP omnibook 5 oled for the same price with "almost" a metal body.
I started thinking, ok I was going to buy an iPad maybe, why not neo? It makes so much sense since my wife could do much more with it. Then I started looking at what the market has to offer for the price and it stopped making sense. The marketing does seem great on this. I am sure it makes a lot of sense to some people who wanted a cheap macOS laptop and got it.
> But then I can get an HP omnibook 5 oled for the same price with "almost" a metal body.
The bargain HP laptops don’t compare at all to MacBook build quality or battery life.
That laptop is also 4lbs and has below average battery life.
We recently got a higher end HP laptop for someone and the build quality on it is marginal at best.
If you’re only looking at spec sheets and trying to treat this like a comparison table of simple points then you’re going to miss the reason why these products appeal to buyers.
> I bought a second hand dell latitude 7/8 years ago, it was 3/4 years old then.
If your needs are satisfied by 4 year old second hand machines and you’re still happy with them when they’re 10-12 years old, that’s great for you.
I think you’re not the target audience. Your decade old Dell Latitude is not even close to the performance or usefulness of a MacBook Neo so the fact that you’re bringing it up is a good indicator that you don’t understand who the MacBook Neo is for.
The MacBook Neo is a great value for anyone who wants a high quality, long battery life, fast laptop for a bargain price.
I would invite you to read my comment again (take a wild guess what my main machine is from the list) and especially the comment I was replying to (like how the build quality is great for other laptops to still be running as a "server" and a capable laptop). My comment might start to make more sense than you think.
We’re in a thread about the MacBook Neo, so that’s what we’re comparing to.
You said you didn’t understand why anyone would buy a MacBook Neo and then went on to talk about old second-hand laptops. You’re not the target audience.
It might be because of me being relatively new to the Apple ecosystem (I got my first developer Mac in 2020), but to this day I have no idea what is it that it's SO bad about Tahoe.
It is my understanding that the A18 CPU is pretty well understood already. AFAIK it doesn't have the new architecture that is keeping the Asahi team from supporting the M4 and M5 for example.
But I guess we'll have to wait for devs to get their hands on a Neo device
It's wild that iPhone 16 Pro has better benchmark than macBook Air. I think this Neo is gonna be a good sell, especially among students and people don't do heavy stuff and just need decent laptop.
I've been holding back to find a suitable machine for a bit of XCode development, web browsing and mail, and I'm pretty close to concluding this'd be good enough, but I'm pretty sure I'd be better off with something heftier, since I mostly just want to develop JUCE stuff on MacOS .. anyone got opinions on this so far? How does the A18 versus Mx architecture factor into things, will we need to write slightly different code for each, or can we write ARM assembly that will be fine in both environments?
If you want to use Xcode (lowercase c) and generally do any dev stuff, don’t take the Neo. It’s not what it has been made for.
Also no, there won’t be any need for different code depending on A* vs M* chips (unless doing very specific code, but if you’re wondering whether to take the Neo, that won’t be your case).
I'm going to echo what others have said, Xcode will run on 8GB but the moment you need simulators or iOS canvas previews it will need more memory. You can probably get by on the Neo, but it won't be ideal. I suggest an M4 Mac mini instead.
Yes. I have a 2020 MBP M1 with 16G and similar vintage MacMini M1 with 8G. The difference in performance was kinda surprising to me. You want 16G of RAM at least.
This HP laptop also has 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD and is an excellent machine overall. I'm speaking from experience. There's an even cheaper $570 model with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD and still slightly better than this Mac on multicore.
And the source of that claim is? The whole point is that the new Ryzen AI 3xx generation is extremely efficient. Without an apples-to-apples comparison (like how many times HP and Mac can compile Linux kernel till battery drains) this is pure religion.
People say things like "don't expect to do hardcore content creation on these" (Ars Technica)
We used to do hardcore content creation on Intel processors and spinning hard drives that were way shittier. Heck even my M1 still 100% suffices for everything I wanna do.
Haha. I edited tv shows back in the very early days of digital non-linear editing on a Mac Quadra 840AV with 80MB of RAM and 40/80MHz 68040 processor and a RAID made up of 4 x 9GB SCSI drives, with a coprocessor board that people wouldn’t consider sufficient for editing gifs with now. We did After Effects rendering with similar gear … my first job was restarting after effects after it would crash part way through a render (go back a few frames and start again).
Very true, but content creation used to mean 720i. Doing high quality compression of 4K with the latest codecs is still a beast.
I bought an 16e last week with the same chipset, just tested and it handles realtime recording of 4k at 60fps with HEVC (camera is "48mp" so the source is 8k camera source material).
Pretty sure most of the encoding/decoding of video is handled with special circuits these days.
Now, add enough layers and it'll probably falter, but with dedicated encoding/decoding circuits combined with a modern GPU it will definetly be a usable experience with some lower res quick pre-renders at worst but probably realtime for most content creator usages.
Content creation also used to mean writing novels by hand and stitching pixel art. You can do basically anything imaginable before 2010 in terms of creation (which is... basically anything worth mentioning?) before running into video as the bottleneck. Probably closer to 2020.
The first professional commercial 4K camera came out over 23 years ago, and the first smartphones and camcorders capable of 4K video were back in 2013.
The Macbook Neo has a 2.5x higher multi-core Geekbench score compared to the i7-4960X's, the top consumer CPU of 2013 (which could handle 4K video editing in h264), and its single-core performance is 5x higher. Plus, I'm 99% sure the MacBook Neo has a dedicated video decoding ASIC anyway.
It’s just boys saying “these are too colourful for serious work”, and then maybe some recycled complaints about Elextron apps.
Meanwhile I guarantee sitting on a university campus I’m going to see a sea of these colours sitting on desks and tables by people putting in some serious work.
In this age of price hikes on components and hardware, this is Apple’s “price heard around the world” like they were on stage at E3 in 1995.[1]
Ironically they pulled it off with Sony’s worst price at an announcement… five hundred and ninety-nine US dollars.
[1] https://youtu.be/ExaAYIKsDBI
>We used to do hardcore content creation on Intel processors and spinning hard drives that were way shittier.
We also used to work fields with our backs and hands, but that doesn't mean we should still do that today when John Deere exists.
I also did my engineering masters on a core 2 duo with 2 GB of RAM, but if I had money i would have definitely preferred something a lot better like an i7 with 8gb of RAM so I wouldn't be constantly hitting the spinning rust SWAP.
My point is, this shouldn't turn into a competition on who suffered the most, doing the most amount of labor with the shittiest possible potato PC, like its happening in the comments right now, as none of these anecdotes proves powerful modern computers aren't useful today.
The Neo is incredibly executed by Apple, and one they must have been planning for for years: to be able to create a machine this good at this price. I wouldn't be surprised if it dramatically reshapes the laptop industry.
Spec-wise, this is as good as an M1-M2 Air, which is already an over-powered device for most non-professionals. All the "compromises" they made, like no center stage in the camera, less ports, only one monitor support, "just WiFi 6E", and others, are all non-issues for a typical average consumers.
And the price is the best it could be. At $499 for students, in a year's time when Gen2 is released, you will find a new Gen1 at possibly $399, and a refurbished Gen1 at even less. I don't see why anyone who wants an "entry-level/starter laptop" would buy anything but a Neo. We already are in a world in which average people don't need specific Windows-only apps. Most common apps are either cross-platform or web-based.
Dell, HP and alike are lucky that they're being enamored with datacenter server demand. I expect them to shift-away from the consumer laptop market and focus more on the enterprise in the coming years, which could have negative consequences for their pro-lineups.
Had similar thoughts until googling what the cheapest Chromebook on Amazon costs: $139.
I’d still get a Neo and for students it’s probably the right choice - chromebooks are just a browsers after all.
But pricing wise this laptop is a decade too late. The netbook of the day (chromebooks?) are just unbelievably cheap. Apple will still sell millions of these and keep on eating up market share.
Agreed! For the longest time, I feel like for most "regular" people (mostly used for web browsing, communication and light gaming) the choice between windows and Mac has mostly come down to price. I feel like this is the first attempt by Apple to disrupt this segmentation and take a stab at the mass market as well.
I'm kind of surprised there has been so much talk about benchmarks. The CPU is probably the single strongest part of the product. The RAM and SSD are clearly going to be limiting factors for a lot of people, but they're not crazy, they're reasonable minimums for a budget device. If you're thinking about performance this device just really isn't for you.
I was skeptical at first, but that's because this is not for me but does have many other use cases. MKBHD video[0] covers it aptly. Great as a higher-end 'chromebook' etc. Could be an upgrade for my Surface Go 3 but not as portable. Definitely more useful than a tablet.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBX5WH9b4M4
I'm sold. My wife is a teacher(refuses to use a chromebook because they suck, or an Ipad because data input sucks). She'll be getting one of these. Kids probably will too. I'm having a really hard time finding another laptop on the market the hits the "i use gmail, and gdocs, and some other webapps all day" demographic so well.
Incredible when you consider that the next one or two generations of the macbook neo will probably come w/ 16gb+ ram and support 5k displays.
A few more generations and we might see < 1kg, 120hz oled and multi day battery life.
But I'm most excited about the near future because if the macbook neo becomes a huge success it will hopefully encourage app devs to waste less ram.
> hopefully encourage app devs to waste less ram.
Plenty of devices with limited RAM existed before this and we didn't see devs cater to them. I highly doubt this temporary spike in memory prices is going to cause a long lasting change in behavior.
I know it is not the target use case this, but I have been thinking more and more about how this could serve a need of a terminal or a kiosk computer in a scenario where a tablet may not be the most suitable due to the need for a full keyboard.
I use an iPad mounted to an arm in the kitchen for cooking but always had issues whenever I needed to modify a recipe (or add a note for later modification), I am debating on switching it out for a Neo. Possibly some other use cases of a permanent computer in places that a tablet worked but a full computer would be far more flexible.
I just first need to find an arm that would be rock solid enough to not wobble a ton while typing, if anyone has any recommendations.
The Walmart outlet on eBay is selling refurb M1s for $380, I think that's still a better deal not just because it's cheaper but you get Touch ID, a better screen, and dual Thunderbolt ports. Backlit keyboard too!
Do you have a link?
There are usually several listings with different conditions and colors
https://www.ebay.com/itm/136764705675
https://www.ebay.com/itm/136699644252
https://www.ebay.com/itm/136452780686
https://www.ebay.com/itm/136740080456
https://www.ebay.com/itm/116534291714
Not a bad single-core result for a $600 laptop...
I was thinking the same but then I looked at what I could get for 70000 INR on Amazon and it would be crazy to buy this over the alternatives. What is the draw for this device given the price?
If you've tried some of those cheap PC laptops the build quality is no where near macbooks (even for laptops twice the price). Macs tend to live a long time and retain their resale value like crazy compared to PCs too.
I bought a macbook pro m1 pro. Its value is 25% in 4/5 years. I bought a second hand dell latitude 7/8 years ago, it was 3/4 years old then. Still running as a server today. A cheap acer bought in 2017 runs almalinux and is surprisingly fast and capable today, I had upgraded ram and put in nvme SSD long back.
Ive owned a lot of macs and PCs over the last 15-20 years (many of them from work so i didnt "own" them but i used them daily), the % of pc laptops that have technical/hardware issues is way higher than macs in my experience. Of course YMMV with either.
If you are satisfied with the build quality and general longevity of an Acer computer then you are wasting your time trying to understand a huge comparative advantage of the Neo. I’d just accept that you aren’t the market and move on.
Yeah, I guess so. I was just wondering when people said it's great value, is it because they believe that the build quality (all metal) is the most important factor here. But then I can get an HP omnibook 5 oled for the same price with "almost" a metal body.
I started thinking, ok I was going to buy an iPad maybe, why not neo? It makes so much sense since my wife could do much more with it. Then I started looking at what the market has to offer for the price and it stopped making sense. The marketing does seem great on this. I am sure it makes a lot of sense to some people who wanted a cheap macOS laptop and got it.
> But then I can get an HP omnibook 5 oled for the same price with "almost" a metal body.
The bargain HP laptops don’t compare at all to MacBook build quality or battery life.
That laptop is also 4lbs and has below average battery life.
We recently got a higher end HP laptop for someone and the build quality on it is marginal at best.
If you’re only looking at spec sheets and trying to treat this like a comparison table of simple points then you’re going to miss the reason why these products appeal to buyers.
Are you sure of that 25%? Where can i find one?
> I bought a second hand dell latitude 7/8 years ago, it was 3/4 years old then.
If your needs are satisfied by 4 year old second hand machines and you’re still happy with them when they’re 10-12 years old, that’s great for you.
I think you’re not the target audience. Your decade old Dell Latitude is not even close to the performance or usefulness of a MacBook Neo so the fact that you’re bringing it up is a good indicator that you don’t understand who the MacBook Neo is for.
The MacBook Neo is a great value for anyone who wants a high quality, long battery life, fast laptop for a bargain price.
I would invite you to read my comment again (take a wild guess what my main machine is from the list) and especially the comment I was replying to (like how the build quality is great for other laptops to still be running as a "server" and a capable laptop). My comment might start to make more sense than you think.
We’re in a thread about the MacBook Neo, so that’s what we’re comparing to.
You said you didn’t understand why anyone would buy a MacBook Neo and then went on to talk about old second-hand laptops. You’re not the target audience.
Back in the day, ability to run MacOS would have been a plus, but with the trainwreck that Tahoe is said to be, I’m not so sure.
People just love to complain. Windows 11 is way worse than Tahoe anyway. If you don’t like Liquid Glass, you can disable it
It might be because of me being relatively new to the Apple ecosystem (I got my first developer Mac in 2020), but to this day I have no idea what is it that it's SO bad about Tahoe.
Those laptops look very good on paper, now buy one and tell us how it goes.
But I have been and so many around me have been buying those. They are ok.
You get a Macbook.
linux on this would be *soo* cool !
I don't think that it would take that much.
It is my understanding that the A18 CPU is pretty well understood already. AFAIK it doesn't have the new architecture that is keeping the Asahi team from supporting the M4 and M5 for example.
But I guess we'll have to wait for devs to get their hands on a Neo device
If Asahi runs well on this I'd be very tempted to get one as a dedicated Linux machine
M4 is basically an upgraded version of the A18.
M1 was A14, albeit upscaled.
It's wild that iPhone 16 Pro has better benchmark than macBook Air. I think this Neo is gonna be a good sell, especially among students and people don't do heavy stuff and just need decent laptop.
I like that they sell a version that lacks touch ID so I cannot be compelled to unlock my Mac by US law enforcement without a warrant.
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/compelled-biometri...
You can also just not choose to enroll any fingerprints in Touch ID. It’s totally optional even if you have the hardware.
You actually trust law enforcement not to use rubber hose decryption or a little less severe not to just hold you in contempt?
Touch ID is an optional feature.
You don’t have to buy a specific model without it. Just don’t use it.
You can just not setup touch id, right?
I'm excited to see how well it runs Windows 11 ARM64. This could be a great value.
Can you run ARM Windows on the metal now on Apple Silicon macbooks?
No. Only through virtualization.
Yeah I think no mission then of ARM Windows running well on this
Using Parallels yes. Whats “on the metal” ?
I've been holding back to find a suitable machine for a bit of XCode development, web browsing and mail, and I'm pretty close to concluding this'd be good enough, but I'm pretty sure I'd be better off with something heftier, since I mostly just want to develop JUCE stuff on MacOS .. anyone got opinions on this so far? How does the A18 versus Mx architecture factor into things, will we need to write slightly different code for each, or can we write ARM assembly that will be fine in both environments?
If you want to use Xcode (lowercase c) and generally do any dev stuff, don’t take the Neo. It’s not what it has been made for.
Also no, there won’t be any need for different code depending on A* vs M* chips (unless doing very specific code, but if you’re wondering whether to take the Neo, that won’t be your case).
Yup, thanks for the advice, definitely leaning towards something with just a little bit more power ..
I'm going to echo what others have said, Xcode will run on 8GB but the moment you need simulators or iOS canvas previews it will need more memory. You can probably get by on the Neo, but it won't be ideal. I suggest an M4 Mac mini instead.
Just get an M1 macbook air. Way cheaper, and you get can 16GB of memory.
Agree, i bought a second hand one about a year ago, 16gb, 500gb for about 200usd. Super machine
You could probably pick up a better spec used Air for the same money
I imagine XCode will run on this ok but it might be a bit painful
You are gonna wish you had gotten at least 16gb of ram.
Yes. I have a 2020 MBP M1 with 16G and similar vintage MacMini M1 with 8G. The difference in performance was kinda surprising to me. You want 16G of RAM at least.
The multicore score is worse than a $650 HP laptop: https://www.staples.com/hp-omnibook-5-16-2k-laptop-copilot-p...
This HP laptop also has 16GB RAM and 1TB SSD and is an excellent machine overall. I'm speaking from experience. There's an even cheaper $570 model with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD and still slightly better than this Mac on multicore.
That $650 laptop has a real-world battery life of ~8 hours. Less, if you’re doing more than streaming you-tube or browsing the web. No thanks.
And the source of that claim is? The whole point is that the new Ryzen AI 3xx generation is extremely efficient. Without an apples-to-apples comparison (like how many times HP and Mac can compile Linux kernel till battery drains) this is pure religion.