Hmmm.... Wondering if this could be eventually used to emulate a PCIe card using another device, like a RaspberryPi or something more powerful... Thinking the idea of a card you could stick in a machine, anything from a 1x to 16x slot, that emulates a network card (you could run VPN or other stuff on the card and offload it from the host) or storage (running something with enough power to run ZFS and a few disks, and show to the host as a single disk, allowing ZFS on devices that would not support it). but this is probably not something easy...
Indeed, and even then, there's some sw-hw-codesign stuff that kinda helps you do what PCIem does but it's usually really pricey; so I kinda thought it'd be a good thing to have for free.
PCIe prototyping is usually not something super straightforward if you don't want to pay hefty sums IME.
The "DMA cards" used for video game cheating are generic PCIe cards and (at least the one I got) comes with open documentation (schematics, example projects etc).
Hi! Author here! You can technically offload the transactions the real driver on your host does to wherever you want really. PCI is very delay-tolerant and it usually negotiates with the device so I see not much of an issue doing that proven that you can efficiently and performantly manage the throughput throughout the architecture. The thing that kinda makes PCIem special is that you are pretty much free to do whatever you want with the accesses the driver does, you have total freedom. I have made a simple NVME controller (With a 1GB drive I basically malloc'd) which pops up on the local PCI bus (And the regular Linux's nvme block driver attaches to it just fine). You can format it, mount it, create files, folders... it's kinda neat. I also have a simple dumb rasteriser that I made inside QEMU that I wanted to write a driver for, but since it doesn't exist, I used PCIem to help me redirect the driver writes to the QEMU instance hosting the card (Thus was able to run software-rendered DOOM, OpenGL 1.X-based Quake and Half-Life ports).
Passthru or time sharing? The latter is difficult because you need something to manage the timeslices and enforce process isolation. I'm no expert but I understand it to be somewhere between nontrivial and not realistic without GPU vendor cooperation.
Note that the GPU vendors all deliberately include this feature as part of their market segmentation.
As in, getting the PCIem shim to show up on a VM (Like, passthrough)? If that's what you're asking for, then; it's something being explored currently. Main challenges come from the subsystem that has to "unbind" the device from the host and do the reconfiguration (IOMMU, interrupt routing... and whatnot). But from my initial gatherings, it doesn't look like an impossible task.
Something like the stm32mp2 series of MCUs can run Linux and act as a PCIe endpoint you can control from a kernel module on the MCU. So you can program an arbitrary PCIe device that way (although it won’t be setting any speed records, and I think the PHY might be limited to PCIe 1x)
interesting... x1 would too slow for large amounts of storage, but as a test, a couple small SSDs could potentially be workable... sounds like im doing some digging...
There are many workloads that would not be able to saturate even an x1 link, it all depends on how much of the processing can be done internally to whatever lives on the other side of that link. Raw storage and layer-to-layer communications in AI applications are probably the worst cases but there are many more that are substantially better than that.
Could you explain in layman terms how it would help with developing PCIE hardware / drivers? I can immediately imagine something like writing more robust unit tests and maybe developing barebones drivers before you get access to actual hardware, but that's where my imagination runs out of fuel.
Sure! Let's say you (Or the company you work for) are trying to develop an NVME controller card, or a RAID card, or a NIC...
Usually, without actual silicon, you are pretty limited on what you can do in terms of anticipating the software that'll run.
What if you want to write a driver for it w/o having to buy auxiliary boards that act as your card?
What happens if you already have a driver and want to do some security testing on it but don't have the card/don't want to use a physical one for any specific reason (Maybe some UB on the driver pokes at some register that kills the card? Just making disastrous scenarios to prove the point hah).
What if you want to add explicit failures to the card so that you can try and make the driver as tamper-proof and as fault-tolerant as possible (Think, getting the PCI card out of the bus w/o switching the computer off)?
Testing your driver functionally and/or behaviourally on CI/CD on any server (Not requiring the actual card!)?
There's quite a bunch of stuff you can do with it, thanks to being in userspace means that you can get as hacky-wacky as you want (Heck, I have a dumb-framebuffer-esque and OpenGL 1.X capable QEMU device I wanted to write a driver for fun and I used PCIem to forward the accesses to it).
Indeed, the project has gone through a few iterations already (It was first a monolithic kernel module that required a secondary module to call into the API and whatnot). I've went towards a more userspace-friendly usage mainly so that you can iterate your changes much, much faster. Creating the synthetic PCI device is as easy as opening the userspace shim you program, it'll then appear on your bus. When you want to test new changes, you close the shim normally (Effectively removing it from the bus) and you can do this process as many times as needed.
Hi, thanks. That's almost it. The remaining problem is just how to tie it together (where do I put the handle_mmio_read pointer or which event should it be handled in?)
PCIEM_EVENT_MMIO_READ is defined but not used anywhere in the codebase
Tangential question: PCIe is a pretty future-proof technology to learn/invest in,
right? As in,
it is very unlikely to become obsolete in the next 5-10 years (like USB)?
Neither of those is going to be obsolete in 5 years. Might get rebadged and a bunch of extensions, but there's such a huge install base that rapid change is unlikely. Neither Firewire nor Thunderbolt unseated USB.
USB4 is the ~third USB protocol stack though (USB1/2 being basically the same iirc, USB3 being a completely separate protocol that neither logically nor physically interacts with USB1/2 at all), heavily based on Thunderbolt to the point of backwards compatibility.
Hmm. What's the current maths on distance vs edge rate vs transceiver latency vs power consumption on when that would be a benefit? Not to mention how much of a pain it is to have good optical connectors.
I wouldn't expect that to be mainstream until after optical networking becomes more common, and for consumer hardware that's very rare (apart from their modem).
How could you possibly know exactly what protocol they'd be using for the potential future optical PCIe connection? Your guess is as good as anyone's, no?
Curious what you mean by learning? Learning about TLPs? Learning about FPGA DMA Engines like XDMA? Learning about PCIe switches / retimers? Learning about `lspci`?
Nothing specific! I learned how to implement USB(-C) because there was some specific hardware I wanted to create. I could see the same thing happening with PCIe in future. With USB its longevity was fairly obvious to me, with PCIe I’m not well informed. Thanks for giving me some acronyms to explore!
Hmmm.... Wondering if this could be eventually used to emulate a PCIe card using another device, like a RaspberryPi or something more powerful... Thinking the idea of a card you could stick in a machine, anything from a 1x to 16x slot, that emulates a network card (you could run VPN or other stuff on the card and offload it from the host) or storage (running something with enough power to run ZFS and a few disks, and show to the host as a single disk, allowing ZFS on devices that would not support it). but this is probably not something easy...
> emulate a PCIe card using another device
The other existing solution to this is FPGA cards: https://www.fpgadeveloper.com/list-of-fpga-dev-boards-for-pc... - note the wide spread in price. You then also have to deal with FPGA tooling. The benefit is much better timing.
Indeed, and even then, there's some sw-hw-codesign stuff that kinda helps you do what PCIem does but it's usually really pricey; so I kinda thought it'd be a good thing to have for free.
PCIe prototyping is usually not something super straightforward if you don't want to pay hefty sums IME.
The "DMA cards" used for video game cheating are generic PCIe cards and (at least the one I got) comes with open documentation (schematics, example projects etc).
Hi! Author here! You can technically offload the transactions the real driver on your host does to wherever you want really. PCI is very delay-tolerant and it usually negotiates with the device so I see not much of an issue doing that proven that you can efficiently and performantly manage the throughput throughout the architecture. The thing that kinda makes PCIem special is that you are pretty much free to do whatever you want with the accesses the driver does, you have total freedom. I have made a simple NVME controller (With a 1GB drive I basically malloc'd) which pops up on the local PCI bus (And the regular Linux's nvme block driver attaches to it just fine). You can format it, mount it, create files, folders... it's kinda neat. I also have a simple dumb rasteriser that I made inside QEMU that I wanted to write a driver for, but since it doesn't exist, I used PCIem to help me redirect the driver writes to the QEMU instance hosting the card (Thus was able to run software-rendered DOOM, OpenGL 1.X-based Quake and Half-Life ports).
Just to hijack this thread on how resilient PCIe is. PS4 Linux hackers ran PCIe over UART serial connection to reverse engineer the GPU. [0] [1]
[0] https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps4/PCIe
[1] https://fail0verflow.com/blog/2016/console-hacking-2016-post...
Fantastic tool, thank you for making this it is one of those things that you never knew you needed until someone took the time to put it together.
This is really interesting. Could it be used to carve up a host GPU for use in a guest VM?
> carve up
Passthru or time sharing? The latter is difficult because you need something to manage the timeslices and enforce process isolation. I'm no expert but I understand it to be somewhere between nontrivial and not realistic without GPU vendor cooperation.
Note that the GPU vendors all deliberately include this feature as part of their market segmentation.
As in, getting the PCIem shim to show up on a VM (Like, passthrough)? If that's what you're asking for, then; it's something being explored currently. Main challenges come from the subsystem that has to "unbind" the device from the host and do the reconfiguration (IOMMU, interrupt routing... and whatnot). But from my initial gatherings, it doesn't look like an impossible task.
some ARM chips can do PCIe endpoint mode, and the kernel has support for pretending to be an nvme ssd https://docs.kernel.org/nvme/nvme-pci-endpoint-target.html
Something like the stm32mp2 series of MCUs can run Linux and act as a PCIe endpoint you can control from a kernel module on the MCU. So you can program an arbitrary PCIe device that way (although it won’t be setting any speed records, and I think the PHY might be limited to PCIe 1x)
interesting... x1 would too slow for large amounts of storage, but as a test, a couple small SSDs could potentially be workable... sounds like im doing some digging...
There are many workloads that would not be able to saturate even an x1 link, it all depends on how much of the processing can be done internally to whatever lives on the other side of that link. Raw storage and layer-to-layer communications in AI applications are probably the worst cases but there are many more that are substantially better than that.
If there's any particular feature you feel you are missing on PCIem or anything, feel free to open an Issue and I'll look into it ;)
I recently bought a DMA cheating card because it's secretly just an FPGA PCIe card. Haven't tried to play around with it yet.
Seems unlikely you'd emulate a real PCIe card in software because PCIe is pretty high-speed.
… or pcie over ethernet ;)
Already done
https://mikrotik.com/product/ccr2004_1g_2xs_pcie
and G-RAID
I've been burned before by driver bugs that only manifested under very specific timing conditions or malformed responses from the device, tnx
Anytime, hopefully it fits your needs and helps you not spend more time than needed tracing issues like this. Thanks for the comment!
that is a huge win if you are developing drivers or even real hardware. it allows to iterate on protokols just with the press of a button
Could you explain in layman terms how it would help with developing PCIE hardware / drivers? I can immediately imagine something like writing more robust unit tests and maybe developing barebones drivers before you get access to actual hardware, but that's where my imagination runs out of fuel.
Sure! Let's say you (Or the company you work for) are trying to develop an NVME controller card, or a RAID card, or a NIC...
Usually, without actual silicon, you are pretty limited on what you can do in terms of anticipating the software that'll run.
What if you want to write a driver for it w/o having to buy auxiliary boards that act as your card? What happens if you already have a driver and want to do some security testing on it but don't have the card/don't want to use a physical one for any specific reason (Maybe some UB on the driver pokes at some register that kills the card? Just making disastrous scenarios to prove the point hah).
What if you want to add explicit failures to the card so that you can try and make the driver as tamper-proof and as fault-tolerant as possible (Think, getting the PCI card out of the bus w/o switching the computer off)?
Testing your driver functionally and/or behaviourally on CI/CD on any server (Not requiring the actual card!)?
There's quite a bunch of stuff you can do with it, thanks to being in userspace means that you can get as hacky-wacky as you want (Heck, I have a dumb-framebuffer-esque and OpenGL 1.X capable QEMU device I wanted to write a driver for fun and I used PCIem to forward the accesses to it).
Indeed, the project has gone through a few iterations already (It was first a monolithic kernel module that required a secondary module to call into the API and whatnot). I've went towards a more userspace-friendly usage mainly so that you can iterate your changes much, much faster. Creating the synthetic PCI device is as easy as opening the userspace shim you program, it'll then appear on your bus. When you want to test new changes, you close the shim normally (Effectively removing it from the bus) and you can do this process as many times as needed.
Latching on to this thread, but can you make as simple as possible of an example?
Something like just a single BAR with a register that printfs whatever is written
Hi! I do have some rudimentary docs on which I made a simple device for example pruposes: https://cakehonolulu.github.io/docs/pciem/simple_device_walk...
Hopefully this is what you're searching for!
Hi, thanks. That's almost it. The remaining problem is just how to tie it together (where do I put the handle_mmio_read pointer or which event should it be handled in?)
PCIEM_EVENT_MMIO_READ is defined but not used anywhere in the codebase
Tangential question: PCIe is a pretty future-proof technology to learn/invest in, right? As in, it is very unlikely to become obsolete in the next 5-10 years (like USB)?
Neither of those is going to be obsolete in 5 years. Might get rebadged and a bunch of extensions, but there's such a huge install base that rapid change is unlikely. Neither Firewire nor Thunderbolt unseated USB.
USB4 is the ~third USB protocol stack though (USB1/2 being basically the same iirc, USB3 being a completely separate protocol that neither logically nor physically interacts with USB1/2 at all), heavily based on Thunderbolt to the point of backwards compatibility.
USB4 is essentially thunderbolt with some new features and some features being optional instead of mandatory.
Might as well be replaced by optical connectors next years, but who knows in advance. Currently there is no competition
Hmm. What's the current maths on distance vs edge rate vs transceiver latency vs power consumption on when that would be a benefit? Not to mention how much of a pain it is to have good optical connectors.
I wouldn't expect that to be mainstream until after optical networking becomes more common, and for consumer hardware that's very rare (apart from their modem).
even though it would be optical, it still is using PCIe protocols in the background...
How could you possibly know exactly what protocol they'd be using for the potential future optical PCIe connection? Your guess is as good as anyone's, no?
Probably because optical PCI-E is an old thing by now.
In fact, "zero~th generation" of thunderbolt used optical link, too. Also both thunderbolt and DisplayPort reuse a lot of common elements from PCI-E
Curious what you mean by learning? Learning about TLPs? Learning about FPGA DMA Engines like XDMA? Learning about PCIe switches / retimers? Learning about `lspci`?
Nothing specific! I learned how to implement USB(-C) because there was some specific hardware I wanted to create. I could see the same thing happening with PCIe in future. With USB its longevity was fairly obvious to me, with PCIe I’m not well informed. Thanks for giving me some acronyms to explore!
As much as I cringe sharing linkedin articles, this particular series of posts are pretty good: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/pci-express-primer-1-overview...