The general premise of tariffs is that a foreign product costs e.g. $100 whereas a domestic product costs $120. If you then put a 50% tariff on the foreign product, it would cost $150, and then people would prefer the domestic product and only be paying 20% instead of 50%. Moreover, they might prefer the domestic product in general (e.g. higher quality and/or patriotism) and only buy the foreign product if it's actually less expensive, and then the foreign manufacturer would have to lower their price from $100 to $70 so that the tariff only raises the price to $105 because any higher price than that and they lose the business.
The result, in theory, is that you would pay $5 more rather than $50 more. Meanwhile the government collected $35 in tariffs on the foreign product, $30 of which came from the manufacturer rather than you, and that allows the government to lower your other taxes by $35 at the same level of government spending and borrowing.
There are essentially two things required for this to work in your favor on net: 1) the tariffs cause the foreign manufacturer to lower their pre-tariff prices at all, and 2) the government uses the tariff revenue instead of some other taxes they would have collected directly or indirectly from you, so that your net tax burden stays the same. It can also be some mix of these, e.g. the foreign manufacturer lowers their price by $10, you pay $15 in tariffs and get a $10 reduction in other taxes, and then you're ahead by $5.
Ironically, the primary way domestic taxpayers end up paying more is if the tariffs succeed in causing people to buy domestic products, because then there is no tariff revenue on the domestic products and people pay the higher price for the domestic products without a reduction in other taxes.
Based on my (limited) understanding of RTRI, they have very specific items they fund and pretty low overall impact to the trade balance ($1M per org and $1B over 3 years program total across all industries). From [1]:
----------
Productivity improvement:
- investing in digitization, automation, or technology to enhance business productivity and competitiveness
- reshoring production, research & development (R&D) operations, recruiting highly qualified personnel (HQP) and expertise
Market expansion and diversification:
- developing and diversifying markets to help businesses find new customers
- business support, market development and diversification, and guidance services (e.g., advice for businesses from a sectoral expert organization)
Strengthening supply chains and trade resilience:
- optimizing supply chain logistics and ensuring compliance with standards to gain market access and/or enhance sales
- strengthening domestic supply chains and facilitating internal trade to increase the resilience of businesses and reliability of domestic markets
----------
This $1B program — even if it all went straight to subsidizing tariffs on Canadian imports — would be a pretty small rounding error out of the total $200B raised through tariffs from the article.
If anything, RTRI funds are largely about efficiency and pivoting to new markets. While there may be some outcomes that result in producers being able to lower their export costs, they're not "paying for" US tariffs.
Far from getting a break, you guys are paying tax on tax. You indirectly pay for import taxes every time your companies import raw materials needed to finish their goods (added value) and then that final value (cost of import + added value) has its own sales tax. AFAIK there are no input credits for US sales tax. Then you also have VAT but at least VAT is only on the added value.
Income tax is way better as you can reduce the tax burden by including expenses/deductions. You cannot do the same for tariffs, sales tax and VAT as an end consumer. VAT is only beneficial to businesses as they can subtract inputs from outputs.
Even with 90B in tariffs collected this fiscal year (since October) the government still spent 600B more than they collected.[1][2] Tax cuts would be great, but if you cut taxes without cutting spending you're just borrowing that tax cut from future generations. (270B of that 600B hole is interest payments on debt incurred by previous generations doing exactly that to us.)
It's like punching yourself in the face and then taking Tylenol for the pain until your friends do what you want. It's psychotic, doesn't work, and they're probably not going to want to hang out until you get some help.
Oh no no, we still have tax cuts for the wealthy, $800B in debt servicing, and $1T/year in military spending to pay for. The tariffs were a regressive tax to compensate for the tax cuts for the wealthy.
The only threat that works against Trump doing destructive things is to say to build a slightly bigger white house for Biden to feature him in a reality show and put him on the front page on a full page and Trump on a the second page at a half page.
You really don't need ANY study to know the obvious thing that tariffs are taxes on imports. It is being paid by Americans from DAY 1. The only difference being American Companies were taking the brunt of it all and it is now obvious that they cannot keep swallowing it and will eventually pass it on to the American consumers.
It is crazy that so many in US STILL think tariffs are being paid for by exporting countries.
US is sabotaging itself and pushing in the same "New World Order" that the right-wing conspiracy nuts kept warning about but ironically have been instrumental in accelerating it themselves anyways.
Or maybe that was the design all along. To not go out in a whimper but with a big bang.
If I were the Democrats, I would do nothing and just let the US admin destroy whatever little credibility it has left on the World stage... thereby securing mid-terms and the next Presidential elections.
> It is crazy that so many in US STILL think tariffs are being paid for by exporting countries.
They knew it was a lie then, and they know it's one now. A plurality of voters want what's happening currently, they're not crazy, it's just a mix of xenophobia, isolationism, and inbreeding.
I am checking conservative echo chambers from time to time and find it ridiculous that they always find a positive spin on all the obvious grifting and destruction that is happening around them. we are witnessing the downfall of an empire with our own eyes and can do absolutely NOTHING
I build homes and so am adjacent to many blue collar Trump fanatics, here's the thing I constantly hear;
> My tool for X used to cost $500 or $2000. The $500 was imported and good enough for me. I could never justify spending $2000 on the Made in USA version although it was very well built and I wanted it. Now, with tariffs, the import costs $1800, so it's easy for me to justify spending $2000 on the Made in USA option. Trump got me to buy American and support American manufacturing. Go MAGA!
It's strange how if the same economic condition existed due to a Biden (or any liberal presidents term) they surely would have been villainized for eliminating ANY lower cost option, increasing the cost of business (when tools cost more, everything they create costs more), and simply stealing food from people's families (as the $1500 extra he spent would have presumably remained in this contractor's profits in the pre-tariff reality not to long ago). It takes massive mental gymnastics to view this as beneficial and anything other than a direct tax on American consumers. The brain washing rhetoric of conservative media is an extremely powerful weapon.
So when are they coming out with a study on how to regain the lost industrial and technological base, so as not to become totally dependent on a hostile competitor?
There's a guaranteed fix, but no one is going to advocate for it: replace the dollar as the global reserve currency.
The replacement of the Bretton Woods system in the 1970s with the petrodollar, transformed the US from a creditor nation to a debtor nation, and shifted economic and financial incentives in ways that resulted in deindustrialization followed by trade imbalance.
If we want to reindustrialize, it's simple: de-dollarize the global reserve. The downside is that it affects the finance bros and the US's ability to apply economic pressure to achieve political outcomes on the world stage. If you think the benefits afforded in international politics outweighs deindustrialization, thats fine, but you can't have both.
My boneheaded proposal is the opposite of Trump's approach: give the rest of the world coupons to buy made-in-USA products and machinery at a steep discount. Ship stuff to the rest of the world and ask nothing in return. Get the orders rolling in from around the world, pushing up economies of scale.
Of course, this will make American consumers much poorer on average, but boost production capacity. Sort of what China does.
Any such plan requires evicting the fascist grifters first, and rejecting these fake calls of "austerity" that have been running interference for the past several decades. Then, proceeds from having the world reserve currency could be spent deliberately (re)building our industry rather than just being dumped into handouts for the rich.
But in a way the reelection of the New York conman was the final nail in the coffin assuring that this will never happen. The red tribe found it more appealing to turn their frustration inwards and attack our country rather than working with the blue tribe to constructively address these types of problems. And with the subsequent destruction of most everything that had made us a world leader, it's questionable whether we will even have the world reserve currency for much longer.
Of course... who did you think would pay?
> who did you think would pay?
The general premise of tariffs is that a foreign product costs e.g. $100 whereas a domestic product costs $120. If you then put a 50% tariff on the foreign product, it would cost $150, and then people would prefer the domestic product and only be paying 20% instead of 50%. Moreover, they might prefer the domestic product in general (e.g. higher quality and/or patriotism) and only buy the foreign product if it's actually less expensive, and then the foreign manufacturer would have to lower their price from $100 to $70 so that the tariff only raises the price to $105 because any higher price than that and they lose the business.
The result, in theory, is that you would pay $5 more rather than $50 more. Meanwhile the government collected $35 in tariffs on the foreign product, $30 of which came from the manufacturer rather than you, and that allows the government to lower your other taxes by $35 at the same level of government spending and borrowing.
There are essentially two things required for this to work in your favor on net: 1) the tariffs cause the foreign manufacturer to lower their pre-tariff prices at all, and 2) the government uses the tariff revenue instead of some other taxes they would have collected directly or indirectly from you, so that your net tax burden stays the same. It can also be some mix of these, e.g. the foreign manufacturer lowers their price by $10, you pay $15 in tariffs and get a $10 reduction in other taxes, and then you're ahead by $5.
Ironically, the primary way domestic taxpayers end up paying more is if the tariffs succeed in causing people to buy domestic products, because then there is no tariff revenue on the domestic products and people pay the higher price for the domestic products without a reduction in other taxes.
Because Canadian government gives money to some industries to pay for tariffs. It's called Regional Tariff Response Initiative (RTRI).
Based on my (limited) understanding of RTRI, they have very specific items they fund and pretty low overall impact to the trade balance ($1M per org and $1B over 3 years program total across all industries). From [1]:
----------
Productivity improvement:
- investing in digitization, automation, or technology to enhance business productivity and competitiveness
- reshoring production, research & development (R&D) operations, recruiting highly qualified personnel (HQP) and expertise
Market expansion and diversification:
- developing and diversifying markets to help businesses find new customers
- business support, market development and diversification, and guidance services (e.g., advice for businesses from a sectoral expert organization)
Strengthening supply chains and trade resilience:
- optimizing supply chain logistics and ensuring compliance with standards to gain market access and/or enhance sales
- strengthening domestic supply chains and facilitating internal trade to increase the resilience of businesses and reliability of domestic markets
----------
This $1B program — even if it all went straight to subsidizing tariffs on Canadian imports — would be a pretty small rounding error out of the total $200B raised through tariffs from the article.
If anything, RTRI funds are largely about efficiency and pivoting to new markets. While there may be some outcomes that result in producers being able to lower their export costs, they're not "paying for" US tariffs.
Edit: formatting.
--
1: https://www.canada.ca/en/prairies-economic-development/servi...
But that still doesn't reduce the cost to US customers, it just means the Canadian businesses gets a subsidy to make up for reduced sales.
Mexico?
https://archive.is/https://www.wsj.com/economy/trade/america...
https://archive.is/lvQHh
Same with corporate taxes, its just targeted a different way.
Duh!
duh
Are we getting income tax breaks then?
Far from getting a break, you guys are paying tax on tax. You indirectly pay for import taxes every time your companies import raw materials needed to finish their goods (added value) and then that final value (cost of import + added value) has its own sales tax. AFAIK there are no input credits for US sales tax. Then you also have VAT but at least VAT is only on the added value.
Income tax is way better as you can reduce the tax burden by including expenses/deductions. You cannot do the same for tariffs, sales tax and VAT as an end consumer. VAT is only beneficial to businesses as they can subtract inputs from outputs.
Republicans elected a president on the promise of introducing a new tax. Can't make this shit up.
Even with 90B in tariffs collected this fiscal year (since October) the government still spent 600B more than they collected.[1][2] Tax cuts would be great, but if you cut taxes without cutting spending you're just borrowing that tax cut from future generations. (270B of that 600B hole is interest payments on debt incurred by previous generations doing exactly that to us.)
[1] https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/gover...
[2] https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...
No.
It's like punching yourself in the face and then taking Tylenol for the pain until your friends do what you want. It's psychotic, doesn't work, and they're probably not going to want to hang out until you get some help.
In two weeks, just like the DOGE checks. Mark your calendar, two weeks.
> In two weeks, just like the DOGE checks. Mark your calendar, two weeks.
Is this before or after Infrastructure Week:
* https://politicaldictionary.com/words/infrastructure-week/
Oh no no, we still have tax cuts for the wealthy, $800B in debt servicing, and $1T/year in military spending to pay for. The tariffs were a regressive tax to compensate for the tax cuts for the wealthy.
The only threat that works against Trump doing destructive things is to say to build a slightly bigger white house for Biden to feature him in a reality show and put him on the front page on a full page and Trump on a the second page at a half page.
You really don't need ANY study to know the obvious thing that tariffs are taxes on imports. It is being paid by Americans from DAY 1. The only difference being American Companies were taking the brunt of it all and it is now obvious that they cannot keep swallowing it and will eventually pass it on to the American consumers.
It is crazy that so many in US STILL think tariffs are being paid for by exporting countries.
US is sabotaging itself and pushing in the same "New World Order" that the right-wing conspiracy nuts kept warning about but ironically have been instrumental in accelerating it themselves anyways.
Or maybe that was the design all along. To not go out in a whimper but with a big bang.
If I were the Democrats, I would do nothing and just let the US admin destroy whatever little credibility it has left on the World stage... thereby securing mid-terms and the next Presidential elections.
> It is crazy that so many in US STILL think tariffs are being paid for by exporting countries.
They knew it was a lie then, and they know it's one now. A plurality of voters want what's happening currently, they're not crazy, it's just a mix of xenophobia, isolationism, and inbreeding.
[dupe] Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46680212
I am checking conservative echo chambers from time to time and find it ridiculous that they always find a positive spin on all the obvious grifting and destruction that is happening around them. we are witnessing the downfall of an empire with our own eyes and can do absolutely NOTHING
Best part is how "west" wants Russians public to revolt against tyranny while we boil like a frogs ... And do absolutely nothing.
is there really nothing to do?
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks."
I build homes and so am adjacent to many blue collar Trump fanatics, here's the thing I constantly hear;
> My tool for X used to cost $500 or $2000. The $500 was imported and good enough for me. I could never justify spending $2000 on the Made in USA version although it was very well built and I wanted it. Now, with tariffs, the import costs $1800, so it's easy for me to justify spending $2000 on the Made in USA option. Trump got me to buy American and support American manufacturing. Go MAGA!
It's strange how if the same economic condition existed due to a Biden (or any liberal presidents term) they surely would have been villainized for eliminating ANY lower cost option, increasing the cost of business (when tools cost more, everything they create costs more), and simply stealing food from people's families (as the $1500 extra he spent would have presumably remained in this contractor's profits in the pre-tariff reality not to long ago). It takes massive mental gymnastics to view this as beneficial and anything other than a direct tax on American consumers. The brain washing rhetoric of conservative media is an extremely powerful weapon.
So when are they coming out with a study on how to regain the lost industrial and technological base, so as not to become totally dependent on a hostile competitor?
I assume they're working on that, right?
Who’s the hostile competitor? Denmark? Germany?
Who is “they” in this question?
There's a guaranteed fix, but no one is going to advocate for it: replace the dollar as the global reserve currency.
The replacement of the Bretton Woods system in the 1970s with the petrodollar, transformed the US from a creditor nation to a debtor nation, and shifted economic and financial incentives in ways that resulted in deindustrialization followed by trade imbalance.
If we want to reindustrialize, it's simple: de-dollarize the global reserve. The downside is that it affects the finance bros and the US's ability to apply economic pressure to achieve political outcomes on the world stage. If you think the benefits afforded in international politics outweighs deindustrialization, thats fine, but you can't have both.
My boneheaded proposal is the opposite of Trump's approach: give the rest of the world coupons to buy made-in-USA products and machinery at a steep discount. Ship stuff to the rest of the world and ask nothing in return. Get the orders rolling in from around the world, pushing up economies of scale.
Of course, this will make American consumers much poorer on average, but boost production capacity. Sort of what China does.
This is a well known practice called dumping.
Expect other countries to retaliate.
So... A free trade deal.
Any such plan requires evicting the fascist grifters first, and rejecting these fake calls of "austerity" that have been running interference for the past several decades. Then, proceeds from having the world reserve currency could be spent deliberately (re)building our industry rather than just being dumped into handouts for the rich.
But in a way the reelection of the New York conman was the final nail in the coffin assuring that this will never happen. The red tribe found it more appealing to turn their frustration inwards and attack our country rather than working with the blue tribe to constructively address these types of problems. And with the subsequent destruction of most everything that had made us a world leader, it's questionable whether we will even have the world reserve currency for much longer.
They're tariffing manufacturing inputs. Almost everything we still make in America now costs us more to produce.
Don't anthropomorphize the misguided missiles in the Trump administration. There is no teleology behind the tariffs, only chaos and grift.