This empowers script kiddies, but not significantly moreso than they already were. Of all the places this is still in use, they've been exposed for years, so this isn't likely to result in a a bunch of new exploitations.
However, it's most likely to be used by governments, with legacy servers that are finicky, with filesharing set up that's impacted other computers configured for compatibility, or legacy ancient network gear or printers.
I wonder who they're pushing around, and what the motivation is?
Mandiant is Google's incident response consulting business. Having worked for many years in that field myself (though not for Mandiant), they're probably sick of going to the same old engagements where companies have been getting owned the same way over and over again for the last 15 years.
What releases like this do is give IT ops people the ammunition they need to convince their leadership to actually spend some money on fixing systemic security problems.
It also empowers IT depts and cybersecurity people to be able to easily build a PoC to show why moving on from the deprecated protocol is important. In many white-hat jobs you can't just grab rainbow tables from a torrent, so a resource like this is helpful. For the grays and black hats, they've had access to rainbow tables like this for a very long time, so no change there.
You've been able to find these for years. In fact it's entirely possible they just grabbed some or all of them out of an existing torrent originally.
It would completely not surprise me if there are automagic attacks on net-ntlmv1 at this point against some cloud hosted storage. This has been doable by anyone since like 2016 if you had the space and weren't prevented from using that protocol version.
There used to be a joint online project to compute these tables in a SETI like distributed system. Everyone who contributed their CPU cycles, could use the tables. And yeah, around 2005-2008.
This is like reminding that there are CVSes from 2010. Yes there are. And there are plenty of vulnerable systems.
They decided to not fix the vulns (either directly by not patching, or indirectly by not investing in cybersecurity). So exploiting them is somehow an act of mercy. They may not know they have a problem and they have an opportunity to learn.
Let's just hope they will have white or gray-ish hats teaching the lesson
Holy smoke. I honestly thought the 90s called and wanted their Windows exploits back (TFA mentions 1999). I do remember talk about this from many moons ago.
Plenty of protocols used by google over the years have been deprecated. The difference being that google actually stops using insecure protocols when they are discovered to be insecure instead of trying to sweep things under the rug.
Keep in mind we are talking about a protocol from 1987. How many protocols from 1987 is google currently using?
Keep in mind that google is primarily a cloud business. That means that they take on a lot more of a risk, as when they are hacked its a them problem vs traditional software where its much more the customer's problem. Security is very much about incentives, and the incentives line up better for google to do the right thing.
It's more about when Google assumed full control of the cloud, the browser, the OS, and everything in between they self-appointed themselves as the unelected standards board of the Internet, and forced everyone else to follow their whims and timelines. Some of which are completely insane.
What are the policies you view as "completely insane"? I have some I disagree with like how they've handled things like Manifest v3 in the browsers, however there are still alternatives like Firefox anyway. However I think in terms of web standards some of the things they have pushed are also helpful. It's been much nicer having a much more consistent web browsing experience with less things like "You must use Internet Explorer on this site".
I feel like web browser and website standards are one of the main areas Google has a lot more control of policies. Is there somewhere else they have much control of for standards?
"To demonstrate how crappy most front door locks are, to boost our company's social media cred we will be leaving drills and a dish of bump keys at the entrance of the neighborhood."
NTLM is often used for more of the underlying technologies, some more secure than others… nthash, net-ntlmv1, net-ntlmv2. There’s a little more complexity here and this is different than the stuff that was out 15 years ago
The bad guys already know you live in a bad neighborhood and have been closing your front door with a plastic combination lock you got in a Happy Meal 40 years ago. They can already come and go at a whim. This is Google letting you know that your crappy lock is pre-broken to encourage you to upgrade to literally anything else.
This empowers script kiddies, but not significantly moreso than they already were. Of all the places this is still in use, they've been exposed for years, so this isn't likely to result in a a bunch of new exploitations.
However, it's most likely to be used by governments, with legacy servers that are finicky, with filesharing set up that's impacted other computers configured for compatibility, or legacy ancient network gear or printers.
I wonder who they're pushing around, and what the motivation is?
Mandiant is Google's incident response consulting business. Having worked for many years in that field myself (though not for Mandiant), they're probably sick of going to the same old engagements where companies have been getting owned the same way over and over again for the last 15 years.
What releases like this do is give IT ops people the ammunition they need to convince their leadership to actually spend some money on fixing systemic security problems.
It also empowers IT depts and cybersecurity people to be able to easily build a PoC to show why moving on from the deprecated protocol is important. In many white-hat jobs you can't just grab rainbow tables from a torrent, so a resource like this is helpful. For the grays and black hats, they've had access to rainbow tables like this for a very long time, so no change there.
Out of curiosity, why can't white hats grab rainbow tables from torrents? Is it about seeding?
You've been able to find these for years. In fact it's entirely possible they just grabbed some or all of them out of an existing torrent originally.
It would completely not surprise me if there are automagic attacks on net-ntlmv1 at this point against some cloud hosted storage. This has been doable by anyone since like 2016 if you had the space and weren't prevented from using that protocol version.
I suspect Mandiant hears a lot of "this is impractical to exploit so we don't care" from their clients. Now they have a compelling rebuttal to that.
And terrorism is just an abstract way of securing underprepared government facilities.
I recall using ntlm rainbow tables to crack windows hashes in high school in like 2008?
Amazing that this is still around and causing someone enough of a headache to justify spending money on.
Also amazing what a teenager with lots of free time and a bootable Linux usb can get up to.
There used to be a joint online project to compute these tables in a SETI like distributed system. Everyone who contributed their CPU cycles, could use the tables. And yeah, around 2005-2008.
LM, nthash aka NTLM, net-ntlmv1 aka ntlmv1, net-ntlmv2 aka NTLMv2. Challenge response stuff is different. Naming here is painful.
Ah Microsoft and naming things... Name a better combo
But fair enough, I don't recall which exact version I was mucking with that long ago.
Ya they just announced they are renaming security algos to copilot!!! story here -> https://dubious-adware-breach-scam@is.gd/WVZvnI?exploit.bat
Didn't l0phtcrack do this like 25 years ago?
I actually got a job that long ago by using l0phtcrack to expose an admin password for an NT4 network.
NTLM is not Net-NTLM- l0pht did ntlm
They're just dumping them out as 2GB blobs onto a cloud? Where is the zippy search UI? Very lazy behavior for the hyper giant Google.
Why would you want a search UI for a rainbow table? That makes no sense.
They don't know how to count that low.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/koGbEwgbfst2wCbzG/i-don-t-kn...
Right? I feel like rainbow tables for NTLM have been around for decades, though at-cost. This seems incredibly low effort on Google's part.
This is like reminding that there are CVSes from 2010. Yes there are. And there are plenty of vulnerable systems.
They decided to not fix the vulns (either directly by not patching, or indirectly by not investing in cybersecurity). So exploiting them is somehow an act of mercy. They may not know they have a problem and they have an opportunity to learn.
Let's just hope they will have white or gray-ish hats teaching the lesson
I wonder how the Mandiant acquisition is regarded within google.
Was it a success? Is Mandiant a cash cow or was it basically an acquihire?
The big "contact mandiant" button next to the post feels a bit like trying to stay relevant and acquire more customers.
> trying to stay relevant and acquire more customers
Is there any business that does NOT try to do this? Why wouldn't they?
> under 12 hours using consumer hardware costing less than $600 USD
Great, so someone with half a motherboard can break this hash
pretty cool
Holy smoke. I honestly thought the 90s called and wanted their Windows exploits back (TFA mentions 1999). I do remember talk about this from many moons ago.
But we are in two-thousand-twenty-FUCKING-six.
It's unbelievable. Just plain unbelievable.
Can't wait for someone to decide one of protocols used by google needs to be deprecated.
Plenty of protocols used by google over the years have been deprecated. The difference being that google actually stops using insecure protocols when they are discovered to be insecure instead of trying to sweep things under the rug.
Keep in mind we are talking about a protocol from 1987. How many protocols from 1987 is google currently using?
Google does whatever is convenient and makes them money. Altruism was never part of the equation.
Sure. Not being hacked is good for business.
Keep in mind that google is primarily a cloud business. That means that they take on a lot more of a risk, as when they are hacked its a them problem vs traditional software where its much more the customer's problem. Security is very much about incentives, and the incentives line up better for google to do the right thing.
It's more about when Google assumed full control of the cloud, the browser, the OS, and everything in between they self-appointed themselves as the unelected standards board of the Internet, and forced everyone else to follow their whims and timelines. Some of which are completely insane.
What are the policies you view as "completely insane"? I have some I disagree with like how they've handled things like Manifest v3 in the browsers, however there are still alternatives like Firefox anyway. However I think in terms of web standards some of the things they have pushed are also helpful. It's been much nicer having a much more consistent web browsing experience with less things like "You must use Internet Explorer on this site".
I feel like web browser and website standards are one of the main areas Google has a lot more control of policies. Is there somewhere else they have much control of for standards?
This is such a negative reading of the situation. You’re talking about something that has been compromised for TWO DECADES.
At least now nobody can pretend.
I for one hope that this hastens the demise of every remaining use.
Well, you'll be waiting 20 years or so post-deprecation if you want an equivalent timeline.
Google thrives on being the Internet's biggest bully.
It turns out when nerds get a billion dollars they like being bullies too.
"To demonstrate how crappy most front door locks are, to boost our company's social media cred we will be leaving drills and a dish of bump keys at the entrance of the neighborhood."
NTLMv1 rainbow tables have been available for 15-20 years. The only thing new is that Google are publishing theirs.
NTLM is often used for more of the underlying technologies, some more secure than others… nthash, net-ntlmv1, net-ntlmv2. There’s a little more complexity here and this is different than the stuff that was out 15 years ago
The bad guys already know you live in a bad neighborhood and have been closing your front door with a plastic combination lock you got in a Happy Meal 40 years ago. They can already come and go at a whim. This is Google letting you know that your crappy lock is pre-broken to encourage you to upgrade to literally anything else.
you say that like it's a negative analogy