Interesting to see Fil‑C used with a large framework like Qt. The fact that it compiles with minimal changes says a lot about the compatibility layer and the InvisiCaps approach.
eh, I daily-drive a -fsanitize=address -fsanitize=undefined build of Qt and actual memory bugs are almost never a thing - I think the only time I had some were in tooling executables such as qmllint, but not in the framework itself. Most of the bugs by large are more "behaviour" bugs.
Depends in which sense you want it to "catch" the bugs. As this readme notes/quotes,
> All memory safety errors are caught as Fil-C panics.
If your problem is a memory-based bug causing a crash, I think this would just... catch the memory-based bug and crash. Like, it'd crash more reliably. On the other hand, if you want to find and debug the problem, that might be a good thing.
Sure, if the memory error is an immediately crashing one like a null per deref, but if is (for example) a memory corruption (e.g. an out of bounds write or a write-after-free) then this would be super helpful in exposing where those are happening at the source.
That’s what “catch” means here. As in, catch it in the act. Tools that make bugs crash more reliably and closer to the source of the problem are extremely valuable.
In my experience (20+ years with C/C++, and about 4 years with Rust), Rust is significantly less complex than C++, while being similarly capable. The extra syntax that throws off so many C++ devs is almost exclusively about data types and lifetimes, which I find very useful for understanding my own code and others', and which I wish I had in C++.
The real answer should have been a new language that has memory safety without all the extra conceptual changes and orthogonal subsystems that Rust brings. The core value of safety did not need the reinvention of everything else with the accompanying complexity and cognitive load. For example Zig which instead of introducing a new metaprogramkming language, it uses...... Zig - imagine using the same language instead of inventing a new additional language with all the accompanying complexity and cognitive load and problems. Rust is for those who revel in complexity. And traits - traits and extra complexity not needed for safety. And result and option and move by dedfault - none of these things were needed but they all add up to more complexity and unfamiliarity and cognitive load. And when you add it all together and intertwine it you end up with something so unfamiliar that it no longer looks like "ordinary programming" it looks like something from the Cambrian period.
I don’t know what you mean by SafER but it’s important to remember that Fil-C sacrifices a lot of performance for that safety which detracts the reasons you’d be running that software as otherwise C was a bad language for them. Sometimes this won’t matter but there are places fil-c won’t be able to go that Rust can - embedded and OS kernel come to mind. Other places would be things like browsers or games. Rust gives you the safety without giving up the ability to do performance.
Also, I could be wrong but I believe any assembly linked into Fil-C bypassed the safety guarantees which would be something to keep in mind (not a big deal generally, but a source of hidden implicit unsafe).
I’m going to start this comment by specifying that I don’t know what OP was considering complex about Rust and, unfortunately, a large amount of discussion on the topic tends toward strawman-ing by people looking to argue the ‘anti-Rust’ side of said discussions. Additionally, the lack of a contextual and well considered position against some aspect of Rust, as a language, is very common, and at worst the negative take is really just a overall confrontational stance against Rust’s uptick in usage broadly and its community of users, as perceived (and also strawmanned), in a generally negative light. But since borrowing is not explicitly mentioned by GP, I will give a slightly different position than he might, but I think this is an interesting perspective difference to discuss and not a blatant ad hom argument used to ‘fight’ Rust users on the internet.
From my position the complexity incurred by ownership semantics in Rust does not stem from Rust’s ‘formalization’ and semi-reification of a particular view on ownership as a means of program constraint. The complexity of Rust, in relation to ownership, comes with the lengths I would have to go to design systems using other logical means of handling references (particularly plain hardware implemented pointers) to semantic objects: their creation, specification, and their deletion. Additionally, other means of handling resources (particularly memory acquired via allocation): its acquisition, transport through local and distributed processes (from different cores to over the wire), and its deletion or handing back to OS.
Rust adopts ownership semantics (and value semantics to a large degree) to the maximum extent possible and has enmeshed those semantics throughout all levels of abstraction in the language definition (as far as a singular authoritative ‘definition’ can be said to exist as a non-implementation related formalism). At the level of Rust the language, not merely discussions and discourse about the language, ownership semantics are baked in at a specified granularity and that ownership is compositional over the abstraction mechanisms provided. These semantics dictate how everything from a single variable on the stack to large size allocations in a general heap to non-memory ‘resources’, like files, textures, databases, and general processes, are handled in a program. On top of the ownership semantics sit the rest of Rust’s semantics and they are all checked at compile time by a singular oracular subsystem (i.e. the borrow checker).
The complexity really begins to rise, for me, if ai want to attempt to program without engaging with ownership as the methodology or semantics for handling all of the above mentioned ‘resources’. I prefer, and believe, that a broader set of formalisms should be available for ‘handling’ resources, that those formalisms should exist with parameterized granularity, and that the foundational semantics for those mechanisms should come from type systems’ ability to encode capabilities and conditions for particular types in a program. That position is in contrast to the universal and foundational ownership semantic, especially with the individualistic fixed granularity, that Rust chose.
That being said, it is bordering on insanity to attempt to program in such a ‘style’/paradigm/method in Rust. My preferences make Rust’s chosen focus on ownership seem complex at the outset, and attempts to try and impose an alternate formalism in Rust (which would, by necessity, have to try and be some abstraction over Rust’s ownership semantics which hid those semantics and tried to present a different set of semantics to thenprogrammer) take that complexity to even higher levels.
The real problem with trying to frame my position here as complexity is the following: to me Rust and its ownership semantic is complex because I do not like it’s chosen core semantic construct, so when I think about achieving something using Rust I have to deal with additional semantics, semantic objects, and their constraints on my program that I do not think are fit for purpose. But, if I wanted to program in Rust without trying to circumvent, ignore, or disregard it’s choices as a language and just decided to accept (or embrace) it’s semantic choices the complexity I perceive would decrease significantly and immediately.
For me, Rust’s ownership semantics create an impedance mismatch that at the level of language use FEELS like complexity (and acts like complexity in a lot of ways), but is probably more correctly identified as just what it is… an impedance mismatch, nothing more and nothing less. For me, I just chose not to use Rust to avoid that, but for others they get focused on these issues and don’t actually get to the bottom of their issues and just default to calling it complexity during discussion.
All in all, I am probably being entirely to optimistic about the comments about the complexity of Rust and ownership and most commenters are just fighting to fight, but I genuinely believe there is much to discuss and work through in programming language design theory and writing walls of text on HN helps me do that.
Sure fooled me. I follow his Twitter account and there isn't much he hasn't got building with it at this point. UX comes later. Amazing it's the random work of one person
I don’t think so much is fil-c itself, but from the looks of the diff it’s a new platform essentially. That can require porting existing software generally which you can read from the posted diff
Most large C code bases aren’t really written in C. They’re written in an almost-C that includes certain extensions and undefined behavior. In this case, it uses inline assembly (an extension) and manipulating pointers as integers (undefined behavior).
Interesting to see Fil‑C used with a large framework like Qt. The fact that it compiles with minimal changes says a lot about the compatibility layer and the InvisiCaps approach.
This is awesome. Would love to see if it catches some of the Qt bugs I found but haven't been resolved yet[1].
[1] https://qt-project.atlassian.net/browse/QTBUG-122658
I only tried to get Qt Base up and running. But Qt Declarative will be next, after Qt Base.
That would be awesome (:
eh, I daily-drive a -fsanitize=address -fsanitize=undefined build of Qt and actual memory bugs are almost never a thing - I think the only time I had some were in tooling executables such as qmllint, but not in the framework itself. Most of the bugs by large are more "behaviour" bugs.
I’m impressed that QT runs clean enough under ubsan for daily use.
Depends in which sense you want it to "catch" the bugs. As this readme notes/quotes,
> All memory safety errors are caught as Fil-C panics.
If your problem is a memory-based bug causing a crash, I think this would just... catch the memory-based bug and crash. Like, it'd crash more reliably. On the other hand, if you want to find and debug the problem, that might be a good thing.
Sure, if the memory error is an immediately crashing one like a null per deref, but if is (for example) a memory corruption (e.g. an out of bounds write or a write-after-free) then this would be super helpful in exposing where those are happening at the source.
That’s what “catch” means here. As in, catch it in the act. Tools that make bugs crash more reliably and closer to the source of the problem are extremely valuable.
I believe much more in making C/C++ safer than using something as complex as Rust.
SafER is better than deeply complex and unable to be understood except by Rust experts.
In my experience (20+ years with C/C++, and about 4 years with Rust), Rust is significantly less complex than C++, while being similarly capable. The extra syntax that throws off so many C++ devs is almost exclusively about data types and lifetimes, which I find very useful for understanding my own code and others', and which I wish I had in C++.
The real answer should have been a new language that has memory safety without all the extra conceptual changes and orthogonal subsystems that Rust brings. The core value of safety did not need the reinvention of everything else with the accompanying complexity and cognitive load. For example Zig which instead of introducing a new metaprogramkming language, it uses...... Zig - imagine using the same language instead of inventing a new additional language with all the accompanying complexity and cognitive load and problems. Rust is for those who revel in complexity. And traits - traits and extra complexity not needed for safety. And result and option and move by dedfault - none of these things were needed but they all add up to more complexity and unfamiliarity and cognitive load. And when you add it all together and intertwine it you end up with something so unfamiliar that it no longer looks like "ordinary programming" it looks like something from the Cambrian period.
I don’t know what you mean by SafER but it’s important to remember that Fil-C sacrifices a lot of performance for that safety which detracts the reasons you’d be running that software as otherwise C was a bad language for them. Sometimes this won’t matter but there are places fil-c won’t be able to go that Rust can - embedded and OS kernel come to mind. Other places would be things like browsers or games. Rust gives you the safety without giving up the ability to do performance.
Also, I could be wrong but I believe any assembly linked into Fil-C bypassed the safety guarantees which would be something to keep in mind (not a big deal generally, but a source of hidden implicit unsafe).
If you can’t understand ownership I’m baffled how you believe you can write well behaved C or C++.
Rust at least embeds this information in the API with checks. C and C++ are doc comments at best.
I’m going to start this comment by specifying that I don’t know what OP was considering complex about Rust and, unfortunately, a large amount of discussion on the topic tends toward strawman-ing by people looking to argue the ‘anti-Rust’ side of said discussions. Additionally, the lack of a contextual and well considered position against some aspect of Rust, as a language, is very common, and at worst the negative take is really just a overall confrontational stance against Rust’s uptick in usage broadly and its community of users, as perceived (and also strawmanned), in a generally negative light. But since borrowing is not explicitly mentioned by GP, I will give a slightly different position than he might, but I think this is an interesting perspective difference to discuss and not a blatant ad hom argument used to ‘fight’ Rust users on the internet.
From my position the complexity incurred by ownership semantics in Rust does not stem from Rust’s ‘formalization’ and semi-reification of a particular view on ownership as a means of program constraint. The complexity of Rust, in relation to ownership, comes with the lengths I would have to go to design systems using other logical means of handling references (particularly plain hardware implemented pointers) to semantic objects: their creation, specification, and their deletion. Additionally, other means of handling resources (particularly memory acquired via allocation): its acquisition, transport through local and distributed processes (from different cores to over the wire), and its deletion or handing back to OS.
Rust adopts ownership semantics (and value semantics to a large degree) to the maximum extent possible and has enmeshed those semantics throughout all levels of abstraction in the language definition (as far as a singular authoritative ‘definition’ can be said to exist as a non-implementation related formalism). At the level of Rust the language, not merely discussions and discourse about the language, ownership semantics are baked in at a specified granularity and that ownership is compositional over the abstraction mechanisms provided. These semantics dictate how everything from a single variable on the stack to large size allocations in a general heap to non-memory ‘resources’, like files, textures, databases, and general processes, are handled in a program. On top of the ownership semantics sit the rest of Rust’s semantics and they are all checked at compile time by a singular oracular subsystem (i.e. the borrow checker).
The complexity really begins to rise, for me, if ai want to attempt to program without engaging with ownership as the methodology or semantics for handling all of the above mentioned ‘resources’. I prefer, and believe, that a broader set of formalisms should be available for ‘handling’ resources, that those formalisms should exist with parameterized granularity, and that the foundational semantics for those mechanisms should come from type systems’ ability to encode capabilities and conditions for particular types in a program. That position is in contrast to the universal and foundational ownership semantic, especially with the individualistic fixed granularity, that Rust chose.
That being said, it is bordering on insanity to attempt to program in such a ‘style’/paradigm/method in Rust. My preferences make Rust’s chosen focus on ownership seem complex at the outset, and attempts to try and impose an alternate formalism in Rust (which would, by necessity, have to try and be some abstraction over Rust’s ownership semantics which hid those semantics and tried to present a different set of semantics to thenprogrammer) take that complexity to even higher levels.
The real problem with trying to frame my position here as complexity is the following: to me Rust and its ownership semantic is complex because I do not like it’s chosen core semantic construct, so when I think about achieving something using Rust I have to deal with additional semantics, semantic objects, and their constraints on my program that I do not think are fit for purpose. But, if I wanted to program in Rust without trying to circumvent, ignore, or disregard it’s choices as a language and just decided to accept (or embrace) it’s semantic choices the complexity I perceive would decrease significantly and immediately.
For me, Rust’s ownership semantics create an impedance mismatch that at the level of language use FEELS like complexity (and acts like complexity in a lot of ways), but is probably more correctly identified as just what it is… an impedance mismatch, nothing more and nothing less. For me, I just chose not to use Rust to avoid that, but for others they get focused on these issues and don’t actually get to the bottom of their issues and just default to calling it complexity during discussion.
All in all, I am probably being entirely to optimistic about the comments about the complexity of Rust and ownership and most commenters are just fighting to fight, but I genuinely believe there is much to discuss and work through in programming language design theory and writing walls of text on HN helps me do that.
Rust is a much easier language to master than C++.
I thought the point of Fil-C was to be a drop in safe replacement of C. This project existing implies it isn't. What's going on?
It isn't entirely drop-in for all programs.
It's not done yet.
Sure fooled me. I follow his Twitter account and there isn't much he hasn't got building with it at this point. UX comes later. Amazing it's the random work of one person
I don’t think so much is fil-c itself, but from the looks of the diff it’s a new platform essentially. That can require porting existing software generally which you can read from the posted diff
Most large C code bases aren’t really written in C. They’re written in an almost-C that includes certain extensions and undefined behavior. In this case, it uses inline assembly (an extension) and manipulating pointers as integers (undefined behavior).