> You can cancel at any time. Without an active subscription, certain core services and privacy features will be limited. To keep your MC03 fully functional, secure, and up to date, an active subscription is required.
Out of curiosity (I'm definitely NOT going to buy a Phone-as-a-Service), what exactly happens when you cancel your subscription? Does the smartphone brick itself? Does it let you flash a sane operating system that doesn't treat you as a cash cow?
Most people seem to be subscribing to a cell phone already. Not us techies, but most normies seem to have expensive phones on three year ”plans” while locked to an expensive network.
I really loved the previous design with the physical numpad and it seems they've opened up the platform to support more applications beyond a few blessed ones (like Signal in the past).
Really put off by this though:
> If you don’t pay for a product, you are the product. With MC03, you pay to retain your data rather than paying with it.
So you have to pay >$100/year to maintain access to your device? Why do I need to pay to retain data that is on my own device?
> They have a fork of an old version of GrapheneOS merged with LineageOS. They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS, but it's a very outdated version. Their devices don't have remotely comparable privacy, security, usability or app compatibility to official GrapheneOS.
>> They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS
Claim not found in article. If it was so heavily marketed, that would be in the announcement since they're mentioning other partners (Threema, Proton, the extra app store it ships...), and definitely on the product page (no mention of /graph.*/ there either)
Edit: found the specs button. It says the OS is based on AOSP (Android open source project)
Searching for "site:punkt.ch grapheneos" returns results that don't exist anymore. Articles are linked in the thread which supports this as well.
> They repeatedly said they forked it from GrapheneOS in their media interviews and marketing. They didn't keep following along with our improvements and have shifted away from presenting it that way, partly because we requested it.
And that also matches what is claimed here, they used to market based on this, they don't anymore.
The product page (https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone, click on "all tech specs") mentions a "SAR sensor". I have not seen that before, does anyone know what this does? Does the device try to estimate how much EM your body received while carrying it around or calling, or what is this for?
Yep, SAR stands for "specific absorption rate". These sensors are typically used to change how the antennas on the phone transmit (like how much power they use) by detecting whether the phone is held close to your body vs. sitting somewhere like on a table.
For years I've been so close to ordering one of their previous generation phones, and now I feel like I've dodged a bullet by not buying from this company. This new phone is a huge step in the wrong direction.
Can someone please release a nice Sidekick like device with physical keyboard that supports Signal.
yeah, it seems like the target market for a privacy-focused device like this are the nerds who could do it themselves and be more confident of the results
The problem in Europe is that Whatsapp has become the standard for mobile messaging, and it's only available on Android and iOS
This really nerfs the whole dumbphone movement for Europeans, which should be a key market.
I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone.
Funny, I am european and i never have used Whatsapp, and i can comunicate with everybody i need. There's also good old sms, that i think all phones still use. Anyway, doesn't he know how to make a simple phone call? Why are all comunications restricted to Whatsapp?
I'm really struggling to see who this phone is aimed for. Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone that is cut off from the major app stores?
I thought this was an eInk screen- all of the screenshots show a grainy black-and-white UI. I had to dig around to learn that it actually has a full-color OLED apparently.
€699 + €9.99/month for a smartphone that supposed to be a dumb phone, with a custom locked down OS. Punkt is losing the point what made their previous products successful.
I have my iphone 13 mini for 4 years, having a Punkt MC03 for the same amount of time would cost me €1058. Thanks, but no thanks.
Well they really destroyed everything that I knew was Punkt: Great design, minimalist, e-ink like displays with an android cheap design, no e-ink, and Phone as a Service? are you kidding us?
If trying to hawk a subscription-based closed-source fork of open source software as privacy preserving or being "Swiss-made" weren't sufficient red flags, search the web for MP02, their last phone. Basic functionality like calling and texting often don't work, and their Signal client never work, they are selling a dream. Punkt is basically a scam
This is a very interesting thread to read... I can't help but remember the wishes expressed in other news threads such as 'I wish I could just pay for things to not have tracking built in' / 'This vital software component is so underfunded, no wonder this happens'
Now a company offers it and every 2nd comment has the vibe of 'Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone'. I guess that means the former vibe is not something most people actually want?
I'm not sure if you find it genuinely surprising that the Hacker News populace is not moved by a device that you not only have to pay rent for, but that also seemingly does not support custom ROMs/firmware.
Besides that, the software that they expect you to pay rent for is a fork of LineageOS/AOSP, but it doesn't seem to mention anywhere on the site whether they donate any of the rent to their upstreams.
People are willing to pay for value delivery and innovation, neither of which are even attempted in this device-, this is just reskinning and rent-seeking.
> What happens if I cancel my subscription?
> You can cancel at any time. Without an active subscription, certain core services and privacy features will be limited. To keep your MC03 fully functional, secure, and up to date, an active subscription is required.
Out of curiosity (I'm definitely NOT going to buy a Phone-as-a-Service), what exactly happens when you cancel your subscription? Does the smartphone brick itself? Does it let you flash a sane operating system that doesn't treat you as a cash cow?
Most people seem to be subscribing to a cell phone already. Not us techies, but most normies seem to have expensive phones on three year ”plans” while locked to an expensive network.
Financing a phone is dumb for most people imo, but at least it has an explicit end where you own the phone outright.
This phone requires a subscription in perpetuity, on top of the full purchase price.
I really loved the previous design with the physical numpad and it seems they've opened up the platform to support more applications beyond a few blessed ones (like Signal in the past).
Really put off by this though:
> If you don’t pay for a product, you are the product. With MC03, you pay to retain your data rather than paying with it.
So you have to pay >$100/year to maintain access to your device? Why do I need to pay to retain data that is on my own device?
Here's what GrapheneOS said about AphyOS: https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/1893469596973220188
> They have a fork of an old version of GrapheneOS merged with LineageOS. They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS, but it's a very outdated version. Their devices don't have remotely comparable privacy, security, usability or app compatibility to official GrapheneOS.
>> They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS
Claim not found in article. If it was so heavily marketed, that would be in the announcement since they're mentioning other partners (Threema, Proton, the extra app store it ships...), and definitely on the product page (no mention of /graph.*/ there either)
Edit: found the specs button. It says the OS is based on AOSP (Android open source project)
Searching for "site:punkt.ch grapheneos" returns results that don't exist anymore. Articles are linked in the thread which supports this as well.
> They repeatedly said they forked it from GrapheneOS in their media interviews and marketing. They didn't keep following along with our improvements and have shifted away from presenting it that way, partly because we requested it.
And that also matches what is claimed here, they used to market based on this, they don't anymore.
The product page (https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone, click on "all tech specs") mentions a "SAR sensor". I have not seen that before, does anyone know what this does? Does the device try to estimate how much EM your body received while carrying it around or calling, or what is this for?
Yep, SAR stands for "specific absorption rate". These sensors are typically used to change how the antennas on the phone transmit (like how much power they use) by detecting whether the phone is held close to your body vs. sitting somewhere like on a table.
Most phones have them.
Why this instead of a Pixel 8 or newer running GrapheneOS and no requirement for subscriptions?
€700 for a locked down phone, excluding €10 / month subscription of a locked down OS. No thanks
It's almost like we're being punked.
or being... punkted?
>punkt.ch wants to send you notifications
pretty bad signal
For years I've been so close to ordering one of their previous generation phones, and now I feel like I've dodged a bullet by not buying from this company. This new phone is a huge step in the wrong direction.
Can someone please release a nice Sidekick like device with physical keyboard that supports Signal.
Yes, I'm in the exact same location.
can someone explain how a subscription-based product is a great option for privacy?
or how being locked in to a black box vpn instills a sense of having gained reliable true privacy?
It's probably to pay for all the things Google provides for free, app store hosting, review, curation, backups, synced data, etc.
yeah, it seems like the target market for a privacy-focused device like this are the nerds who could do it themselves and be more confident of the results
The problem in Europe is that Whatsapp has become the standard for mobile messaging, and it's only available on Android and iOS
This really nerfs the whole dumbphone movement for Europeans, which should be a key market.
I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone.
When you say "Europe" where exactly do you mean?
My experience of not having a Whatsapp account and being in Europe is that I don't miss it.
I'm not in a few group chats with people that won't use Signal but that's it. I've never had an issue contacting any business or any indivdual.
Funny, I am european and i never have used Whatsapp, and i can comunicate with everybody i need. There's also good old sms, that i think all phones still use. Anyway, doesn't he know how to make a simple phone call? Why are all comunications restricted to Whatsapp?
I don't understand - how could they not get in touch with anyone? Surely SMS would have still worked if they were available on WhatsApp?
Trying to do an ELIHN here...
On a holiday of 10 people, everybody exchanging numbers means 10x9/2 = 45 actions, with many of those edges between strangers (higher cost edge)
Each person adding their friend to the Whatsapp group is 9 actions, with all edges between friends (low-cost edge)
So in practice, only the second one happens. He had one other person's number, but that particular person didn't check their phone.
I'm really struggling to see who this phone is aimed for. Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone that is cut off from the major app stores?
I got interested and checked their website, but it gave me a bad vibe, not to mention the hefty price tag in addition to the subscription.
I thought this was an eInk screen- all of the screenshots show a grainy black-and-white UI. I had to dig around to learn that it actually has a full-color OLED apparently.
I find it amusing to see the Facebook, XTwitter, and Pinterest social buttons at the bottom of the article.
Also the site attempts to get a geo ping from your browser. Icky, to say the least. Makes their claims surrounding privacy seem a tad dubious.
€699 + €9.99/month for a smartphone that supposed to be a dumb phone, with a custom locked down OS. Punkt is losing the point what made their previous products successful.
I have my iphone 13 mini for 4 years, having a Punkt MC03 for the same amount of time would cost me €1058. Thanks, but no thanks.
Well they really destroyed everything that I knew was Punkt: Great design, minimalist, e-ink like displays with an android cheap design, no e-ink, and Phone as a Service? are you kidding us?
If trying to hawk a subscription-based closed-source fork of open source software as privacy preserving or being "Swiss-made" weren't sufficient red flags, search the web for MP02, their last phone. Basic functionality like calling and texting often don't work, and their Signal client never work, they are selling a dream. Punkt is basically a scam
This is a very interesting thread to read... I can't help but remember the wishes expressed in other news threads such as 'I wish I could just pay for things to not have tracking built in' / 'This vital software component is so underfunded, no wonder this happens'
Now a company offers it and every 2nd comment has the vibe of 'Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone'. I guess that means the former vibe is not something most people actually want?
I'm not sure if you find it genuinely surprising that the Hacker News populace is not moved by a device that you not only have to pay rent for, but that also seemingly does not support custom ROMs/firmware.
Besides that, the software that they expect you to pay rent for is a fork of LineageOS/AOSP, but it doesn't seem to mention anywhere on the site whether they donate any of the rent to their upstreams.
I think the distaste is for rent being charged on a device that you've supposedly bought out right.
Charge a subscription or sell the phone outright but don't do both.
I feel the same way about cars where you pay for the engine or the heated seats but can't use them without paying rent.
So if you dislike Google's business model you have to love John Deer's?
People are willing to pay for value delivery and innovation, neither of which are even attempted in this device-, this is just reskinning and rent-seeking.
Yes. Don't listen to what people say they will do, pay attention to what they actually do.
Has Graphene announced their 'major Android OEM to bring the OS to Snapdragon-powered flagships' [that is NOT fairphone] yet?
No, not yet.
> Like its forerunner, the MC02, the new model is a subscription-based smartphone
stopped reading there
I really wonder what the hell that is even about. It doesn't just seem like unfortunate messaging.