> Did we choose the age at which we would have children? What does it mean to choose?
we planned to have a kid by our early thirties. she specifically wanted one by 30. we were both healthy, financially stable with solid careers.
then came multiple miscarriages, 10 years of background/foreground stress, and IVF. now we finally have two healthy ones. i think daily about those 10 years we've lost to spend with our kids while still younger and able to do activities that i still enjoy like snowboarding, mountain biking, etc. thankfully i'll still be able to do some of it, but man, it has been rough. my awesome father-in-law died of cancer 9mo before his grandson's birth; the only thing he ever knew were our ongoing struggles :(
something else that happens is that all your same-aged friends with kids...they have different lives now. you can't talk to them about the same child struggles / tips in real time, the kids don't go to school together or know the same people; they're a generation apart. it becomes an isolating event when the delay is long enough.
despite all that, when i think of where i was financially then and now (and what i did in those 10 years to get from there to here that would not have happened otherwise), and that if i had a kid 10 years ago it would be a different [probably worse] kid instead of the adorable 2.5yo that runs to me each morning now, i feel a lot better.
my advice would not necessarily be to start earlier, but if you've decided to procreate and are consciously deferring it until the "right" time, just expect the really, really unexpected.
For decades the discussion in schools have been around "this is how you avoid unwanted pregnancy", safe sex and all of that.
With our(northern Europe) crashing fertility rate there's now also discussions about adding on "when the woman is 25 this happens and you're this likely to get pregnant, at 30 it's like this...", just so that people can plan and try for the family they want. If one wants 3 kids and don't want IVF you should apparently start around when the woman is 25-28 or something like that?
While I understand and empathize with what this article is getting at ("If you intend to have children, but you don’t intend to have them just yet, you are not banking extra years as a person who is still too young to have children. You are subtracting years from the time you will share the world with your children."), I strongly disagree. I think people should have kids when they are ready. Make an assessment to the best of their ability when exactly that time has arrived. Then, don't dwell on it further. Especially don't blog about it. There are no counterfactuals, this kind of reflection can only serve to make us miserable.
I think most great parents didn't feel ready, and in some sense not feeling ready is evidence of the kind of conscientiousness that makes you a great parent. I think it is a valuable service to push people who want kids but aren't sure when to have them to have them earlier than they otherwise would. You never know how difficult it will be for you until you start trying.
I’m about to become a parent, about 10 years later than I’d have liked. Main reason for that is just not meeting the right person, pandemic, money etc.
But I only feel ready now. I’m a late developer in general (aren’t all software engineers haha arf) and I honestly felt too free spirited in the past. Many friends had kids a decade or more ago, and they are looking forward to their kids leaving home so they can travel etc. But I’ve already done all that, I have nothing to devote my life to now other than work and family.
In my case at least, being ready was a real thing. It’s really about maturity and having had enough of a life myself.
the question is if this is not survivor bias - 'Those were great parents and they where not ready so' doesn't implicate that most people that are not ready will be great parents.
It also what you want to optimize for. I would prefer to have hordes of good parents that just only dozens of great one in society. We most likely can also say: "Most worst parents didn't feel ready"
I'm torn here because you're both right, kinda, from my viewpoint. And that is you should do a thing, whether getting married, having kids, etc. as soon as you're sure you want that.
You shouldn't rush it thinking of years lost, but at the same time, shouldn't delay it until everything's perfect/'the right time', because, from experience, everything will never be perfect.
No matter how long we waited, we did not feel ready. There was always too much to do, it was never really the right time. At some point we just gave in and perhaps we should have done it sooner.
Having kids in a later stage has a lot of advantages. You (hopefully) saved more. You are more mature and informed. You know how to save for your children from day one and what to teach them.
But the thing about time is true and doubly so when it comes to grandparents. First of all if you live around your family and they can help out, it's an invaluable rock to lean on, and of course if you waited the grandparents are going to be too old to really help. But what's worse, is your kids will probably know them for a very short time if they even remember them when they grow up.
The thing about "being ready" is nonsense because you can't be ready. You don't understand what a massive gift and blessing it is to have children, and also how everything changes. You can't be ready because you just can't understand it before it happens. So waiting for the perfect time is useless. If you know want children at some point, just do it.
In one sense, you can't; the world they lived in lived with them, and when they were gone their world was gone with them too.
In another sense, you can't *avoid* that world; the world they lived in was one they *created*, physically, and much of it is still here with us, shaping us as they shaped it.
And remember, none of the people who came before us ever experienced anything but pieces of their world, just like we only ever experience pieces of our own. But you can at least try to show your kids as many of those pieces as possible.
You don't need to. This is the first generation where there's millions of hours of online podcasts with tech bros for them to enjoy. In general, we're a uniquely well-documented set of generations, even if we exclude all the stuff that will be lost when Google/Facebook/VK etc. collapse.
This essay was in part an inspiration for my (much more upbeat) essay which was on here yesterday https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46452763, and I linked it at the end, but I thought it deserved a submission on its own.
I find your essay more downbeat. I actually disagree with it too, as it misses the fact that children aren’t really aware of their lives in the same way adults are. Life begins at 18 imo.
I feel we should have children as early as possible between 18 and 30, but we should also stay together with our parents. Grandparents can raise their grandchildren. They would do a better job. The problem is now everyone wants to go on their own, separate from the community, then call modern life difficult.
Very interesting article! Really like when people use fonts with serifs. I noticed the usage of accent aigu instead of apostrophes, was that on purpose? An accent isn‘t an apostrophe, it takes up more space horizontally. Much more obvious in this font.
it’s never the right time, not everyone deserves to have kids, and not every kid deserves the parents they got, still, it has to be part of the meaning of life, to see something that is your blood, discover, play, become a responsible adult and one day hopefully decided that it is worth to also have children of their own
I was born with a heart defect that will kill me young. I spent my youth waking up from surgeries until I became disappointed I'd woken up. This author is still just a tourist of death going through what I view as an early developmental stage of death realization and their view is effectively just myopic shaming because they had their first realization.
My parents died before I turned 20 and 28.
Death is horrible and loss is horrible but each person gets to pick their meaning generation, that's what makes humans fucking cool.
We are like a random forest of meaning generation, an epicenter of complex meaning creation, the plurality and uniqueness of paths is critical, and each of us gets to decide what our meaning exploration/creation will entail, and no one can rationally shame us for that.
We are all very special. Each and every person. We are the unique meaning generators of the universe, like stars emit photons we emit complex meaning, there is no entity we have observed that has explained to the universe the how and why of bird flight, we generated the how and why of that, we are meaning generating organs of the universe bootstrapped by simpler meaning in rna and dna and each one of us is rare.
Complex meaning generation, storage and emission is still in it's infancy from our empirical observations we can't predict how far into the future meaning generation will reach or what it will accomplish, we can't ex ante predict how important we are, no one can tell us we won't be very important to the casual chain of the universe, it simply cannot be computed ahead of time.
As a child I read the book version of A Baker's Dozen, a true story about an efficiency expert with a heart defect that had 12 children and dies at the end while calling his wife.
Each person generates unique meaning in the universe and the one thing we get to do is decide what our unique meaning exploration path is, no person is guaranteed to see any time with their kids, guaranteed to want to have kids, guaranteed to have a kid they enjoy being around. Decide what you intrinsically find meaningful and generate meaning, the random forrest requires the diversity of search/creation paths.
I have super-bad genetics. Not so bad that I have an entirely terrible life, but bad enough that I wouldn't wish them on a child. I know they would hate me, since I am aware of how bad my genetics are.
People who have children think having children is the right choice, generally. They have to, to find meaning in all of the work of having and raising a child. That's understandable. But it is by no means the right choice for everyone.
I had a lousy childhood -- not just because of my genetics. There's no license, no mandatory training for having a child. You can just have one. Many parents are not qualified, by any measure. This keeps therapists well-employed.
Only have a child if you would like to be that child. Only have a child if you feel competent, and able, and certain that when they are an adult they will not resent you -- yes, it's natural to have some resentment for your parents, but this is not the sort of resentment I am talking about.
Do not UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have a child if you're just looking for 'legacy'. Write a book. Give to charity. But this is a terrible reason to have a child! Don't.
> But this idea of certainty is a sham, a distraction, something to turn your attention away from the only truly certain thing, which is that your time will run out.
I hard disagree with this entire blog post. What an incredibly depressing, judgmental, and self-centered way to live life. It doesn't matter when you do things as long as you are satisfied with the results.
You should focus more on deeply appreciating all possible results life has to offer than making any particular decision. This is how you find certainty. You must have imagination and see how things would change even if, for better or worse, most of those things never come true. As a matter of fact, none of them will except for the ones you choose. You must always be visualizing what comes next, or else of course you'd be lost and scared. Everything single second of your life is compromises before you even realize you're making them, and there are no right answers. If you can't handle that, you'll never feel happy.
> Did we choose the age at which we would have children? What does it mean to choose?
we planned to have a kid by our early thirties. she specifically wanted one by 30. we were both healthy, financially stable with solid careers.
then came multiple miscarriages, 10 years of background/foreground stress, and IVF. now we finally have two healthy ones. i think daily about those 10 years we've lost to spend with our kids while still younger and able to do activities that i still enjoy like snowboarding, mountain biking, etc. thankfully i'll still be able to do some of it, but man, it has been rough. my awesome father-in-law died of cancer 9mo before his grandson's birth; the only thing he ever knew were our ongoing struggles :(
something else that happens is that all your same-aged friends with kids...they have different lives now. you can't talk to them about the same child struggles / tips in real time, the kids don't go to school together or know the same people; they're a generation apart. it becomes an isolating event when the delay is long enough.
despite all that, when i think of where i was financially then and now (and what i did in those 10 years to get from there to here that would not have happened otherwise), and that if i had a kid 10 years ago it would be a different [probably worse] kid instead of the adorable 2.5yo that runs to me each morning now, i feel a lot better.
my advice would not necessarily be to start earlier, but if you've decided to procreate and are consciously deferring it until the "right" time, just expect the really, really unexpected.
For decades the discussion in schools have been around "this is how you avoid unwanted pregnancy", safe sex and all of that.
With our(northern Europe) crashing fertility rate there's now also discussions about adding on "when the woman is 25 this happens and you're this likely to get pregnant, at 30 it's like this...", just so that people can plan and try for the family they want. If one wants 3 kids and don't want IVF you should apparently start around when the woman is 25-28 or something like that?
But who's financially secure at 25?
> But who's financially secure at 25?
Those backed up by their government?
While I understand and empathize with what this article is getting at ("If you intend to have children, but you don’t intend to have them just yet, you are not banking extra years as a person who is still too young to have children. You are subtracting years from the time you will share the world with your children."), I strongly disagree. I think people should have kids when they are ready. Make an assessment to the best of their ability when exactly that time has arrived. Then, don't dwell on it further. Especially don't blog about it. There are no counterfactuals, this kind of reflection can only serve to make us miserable.
I think most great parents didn't feel ready, and in some sense not feeling ready is evidence of the kind of conscientiousness that makes you a great parent. I think it is a valuable service to push people who want kids but aren't sure when to have them to have them earlier than they otherwise would. You never know how difficult it will be for you until you start trying.
I’m about to become a parent, about 10 years later than I’d have liked. Main reason for that is just not meeting the right person, pandemic, money etc.
But I only feel ready now. I’m a late developer in general (aren’t all software engineers haha arf) and I honestly felt too free spirited in the past. Many friends had kids a decade or more ago, and they are looking forward to their kids leaving home so they can travel etc. But I’ve already done all that, I have nothing to devote my life to now other than work and family.
In my case at least, being ready was a real thing. It’s really about maturity and having had enough of a life myself.
the question is if this is not survivor bias - 'Those were great parents and they where not ready so' doesn't implicate that most people that are not ready will be great parents.
It also what you want to optimize for. I would prefer to have hordes of good parents that just only dozens of great one in society. We most likely can also say: "Most worst parents didn't feel ready"
I'm torn here because you're both right, kinda, from my viewpoint. And that is you should do a thing, whether getting married, having kids, etc. as soon as you're sure you want that.
You shouldn't rush it thinking of years lost, but at the same time, shouldn't delay it until everything's perfect/'the right time', because, from experience, everything will never be perfect.
No matter how long we waited, we did not feel ready. There was always too much to do, it was never really the right time. At some point we just gave in and perhaps we should have done it sooner.
Having kids in a later stage has a lot of advantages. You (hopefully) saved more. You are more mature and informed. You know how to save for your children from day one and what to teach them.
But the thing about time is true and doubly so when it comes to grandparents. First of all if you live around your family and they can help out, it's an invaluable rock to lean on, and of course if you waited the grandparents are going to be too old to really help. But what's worse, is your kids will probably know them for a very short time if they even remember them when they grow up.
The thing about "being ready" is nonsense because you can't be ready. You don't understand what a massive gift and blessing it is to have children, and also how everything changes. You can't be ready because you just can't understand it before it happens. So waiting for the perfect time is useless. If you know want children at some point, just do it.
I don't know how anyone gets wisdom, without taking very opposite views seriously.
And being grateful for those who took the time to share their epiphanies in such a readable way.
It didn't come across to me as pushy advice, but as advice to think.
> That entire group of middle-aged people, who made up the adult world when my father was a child, is gone.
That really got me. How can I bring these people, this "adult world" forward in time as a gift to my children?
In one sense, you can't; the world they lived in lived with them, and when they were gone their world was gone with them too.
In another sense, you can't *avoid* that world; the world they lived in was one they *created*, physically, and much of it is still here with us, shaping us as they shaped it.
And remember, none of the people who came before us ever experienced anything but pieces of their world, just like we only ever experience pieces of our own. But you can at least try to show your kids as many of those pieces as possible.
You don't need to. This is the first generation where there's millions of hours of online podcasts with tech bros for them to enjoy. In general, we're a uniquely well-documented set of generations, even if we exclude all the stuff that will be lost when Google/Facebook/VK etc. collapse.
This essay was in part an inspiration for my (much more upbeat) essay which was on here yesterday https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46452763, and I linked it at the end, but I thought it deserved a submission on its own.
I find your essay more downbeat. I actually disagree with it too, as it misses the fact that children aren’t really aware of their lives in the same way adults are. Life begins at 18 imo.
I liked it, made me reflect and consider - not always easy these days.
Happy new years and thanks
I feel we should have children as early as possible between 18 and 30, but we should also stay together with our parents. Grandparents can raise their grandchildren. They would do a better job. The problem is now everyone wants to go on their own, separate from the community, then call modern life difficult.
Speak for yourself, I plan to live forever
Very interesting article! Really like when people use fonts with serifs. I noticed the usage of accent aigu instead of apostrophes, was that on purpose? An accent isn‘t an apostrophe, it takes up more space horizontally. Much more obvious in this font.
it’s never the right time, not everyone deserves to have kids, and not every kid deserves the parents they got, still, it has to be part of the meaning of life, to see something that is your blood, discover, play, become a responsible adult and one day hopefully decided that it is worth to also have children of their own
happy 2026
(2018)
Some previous discussion:
2022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31121453
I was born with a heart defect that will kill me young. I spent my youth waking up from surgeries until I became disappointed I'd woken up. This author is still just a tourist of death going through what I view as an early developmental stage of death realization and their view is effectively just myopic shaming because they had their first realization.
My parents died before I turned 20 and 28.
Death is horrible and loss is horrible but each person gets to pick their meaning generation, that's what makes humans fucking cool.
We are like a random forest of meaning generation, an epicenter of complex meaning creation, the plurality and uniqueness of paths is critical, and each of us gets to decide what our meaning exploration/creation will entail, and no one can rationally shame us for that.
We are all very special. Each and every person. We are the unique meaning generators of the universe, like stars emit photons we emit complex meaning, there is no entity we have observed that has explained to the universe the how and why of bird flight, we generated the how and why of that, we are meaning generating organs of the universe bootstrapped by simpler meaning in rna and dna and each one of us is rare.
Complex meaning generation, storage and emission is still in it's infancy from our empirical observations we can't predict how far into the future meaning generation will reach or what it will accomplish, we can't ex ante predict how important we are, no one can tell us we won't be very important to the casual chain of the universe, it simply cannot be computed ahead of time.
As a child I read the book version of A Baker's Dozen, a true story about an efficiency expert with a heart defect that had 12 children and dies at the end while calling his wife.
Each person generates unique meaning in the universe and the one thing we get to do is decide what our unique meaning exploration path is, no person is guaranteed to see any time with their kids, guaranteed to want to have kids, guaranteed to have a kid they enjoy being around. Decide what you intrinsically find meaningful and generate meaning, the random forrest requires the diversity of search/creation paths.
I have super-bad genetics. Not so bad that I have an entirely terrible life, but bad enough that I wouldn't wish them on a child. I know they would hate me, since I am aware of how bad my genetics are.
People who have children think having children is the right choice, generally. They have to, to find meaning in all of the work of having and raising a child. That's understandable. But it is by no means the right choice for everyone.
I had a lousy childhood -- not just because of my genetics. There's no license, no mandatory training for having a child. You can just have one. Many parents are not qualified, by any measure. This keeps therapists well-employed.
Only have a child if you would like to be that child. Only have a child if you feel competent, and able, and certain that when they are an adult they will not resent you -- yes, it's natural to have some resentment for your parents, but this is not the sort of resentment I am talking about.
Do not UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have a child if you're just looking for 'legacy'. Write a book. Give to charity. But this is a terrible reason to have a child! Don't.
> Do not UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have a child if you're just looking for 'legacy'
Agreed with that. I couldn't even tell you the names of any of my great grandparents, much less anything above.
> Only have a child if you feel… certain that when they are an adult they will not resent you.
Resenting one’s parents, even like, a really really lot, is a small price indeed to pay to be alive. The other option is to not exist.
How can I not exist if I don't even exist?
> But this idea of certainty is a sham, a distraction, something to turn your attention away from the only truly certain thing, which is that your time will run out.
I hard disagree with this entire blog post. What an incredibly depressing, judgmental, and self-centered way to live life. It doesn't matter when you do things as long as you are satisfied with the results.
You should focus more on deeply appreciating all possible results life has to offer than making any particular decision. This is how you find certainty. You must have imagination and see how things would change even if, for better or worse, most of those things never come true. As a matter of fact, none of them will except for the ones you choose. You must always be visualizing what comes next, or else of course you'd be lost and scared. Everything single second of your life is compromises before you even realize you're making them, and there are no right answers. If you can't handle that, you'll never feel happy.
Funny, for me the article reads like a ode to saying yes to life, not the other way round..