I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn.
Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.
People (not necessarily the author, but likely many commentators that make similar complains about the frameworks price) will lament how manufacturers don’t have upgradable ram, etc and then turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop, or the price.
I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though.
Rergardless, what I feel like we see here (along with a lack of scale from a small company) is the core tradeoffs that we’d have to make to get back repairability, etc. framework certainly isn’t above criticism, but if you don’t care about these things then why look at this machine? A large established brand is always going to offer a a better value on the things you care about.
Value wise when trying to spec out my personal Lenovo laptop on framework, it'd never get anywhere close to being worth it even if I completely made use of the hardware after a future upgrade.
Framework makes sense if you're going in on the sustainability idea, but other than that it's really just an expensive laptop that's not compelling against its competitors
Dave2D made the argument that you could buy another laptop for the same price as upgrading the Framework 16. This makes it hard to accept the quality tradeoffs.
I think what’s lost here is when the framework project was launched, all the companies were moving to SoC designs and reliability was unknown.
Replacing a stick of ram is still much cheaper than buying a whole new MacBook, but these systems seem to be reliable enough that ram failures aren’t front of mind. Same for SSDs.
I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most people.
>Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.
I'm convinced that a lot of people have Dunning-Kruger effect when it comes to niche products like Framework. The fact that Framework exists at all is amazing, and like you said, it's frustrating to see the lack of understanding of the core value proposition of Framework both in this post and HN.
I think you’ve brought a really interesting point up. A lot of these laptops are the way they are because miniaturisation. Framework trades that off. But for some, this tradeoff isn’t in the right spot.
The challenge for framework is to build a modern laptop, that doesn’t have these tradeoffs. Which is an impossible challenge, hence why all of the other manufacturers ditched it. (That and repairability being bad for business)
So, a framework laptop, that’s as light, thin and fast as a mbp, while being a comparable price and being able to pull tabs to swap ram. The better their engineering, the closer they get to this and the more customers they can please.
Is 2000 eur even a lot of money? I think that gets you into better than dogshit laptop territory but I'd hesitate to claim that a 2000 eur purchase every >5 years puts you in "luxury" territory.
For a good laptop it wouldn't be too bad, i.e. my X1 Carbon cost me about the same back in 2019 if I remember correctly. But it's ultimately about the price/quality trade-off, and this is where I feel Framework has some work to do, at least with the 16 inch model.
The author seems to be very aware of the benefit of upgradability, but thats not an excuse for the shoddy experience. Some of the issues the author mentions are just absurd. Sharp edges, panels that creak? Come on.
I dual boot Asahi and Mac OS X on my Macbook Air, and haven't had any problems with suspend. IMO the two biggest problems are lack of USB-C display output (although this is less of a problem with the Macbook Pro since you can use HDMI) and having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop).
It seems like he's looking for a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't many options there. I'm not sure why he even considered the Framework, it's pretty obvious from looking at it that the downside for the configurability is the laptop not being as solidly built as less configurable/repairable alternatives. I would have suggested a Dell XPS if he's ruled out the X1 Carbon, but it looks like Dell still hasn't backtracked from their decision to ruin the XPS keyboard by replacing the function keys with an even less functional ripoff of the Apple touchbar from 10 years ago. I guess the best move is to suck it up and go with the X1 Carbon and deal with the screen resolution for the IPS version being 1200p.
Just curious in case somebody knows. Are OLED displays in laptops bad at low light? He cites that as a reason he doesn’t want OLED, but I’ve never noticed such a problem on OLED phones.
I'm using an OLED X1 Carbon right now in the UK. I use it all the time in low light.
I just turned all the lights off (even the Christmas tree) and ran through a handful of usage situations and couldn't see any issues. I turned some lights on and did the same, I couldn't see any issues. I asked Claude, and got told to do the finger test, and that is barely perceptible. I then used my phone to record the screen and yes - I can confirm that there is an effect that my pixel 9a's camera picks up, barely noticeable at 240Hz, and definitely noticeable at 480Hz.
Maybe the guy is particularly sensitive, but from the framing of the rest of the article I think he's blowing a few things out of proportion.
I probably should've done a better job at clarifying this, but my issue with OLEDs isn't just that (at least historically) they tend to be too bright even at lower brightness, but also the other issues they come with such as burn-in and text potentially looking less pleasant compared to IPSs displays. Burn-in is probably my biggest concern here, especially since it really seems to be a case of winning the lottery or not (i.e. for some it's fine for years, others get burn-in after just a few months).
Basically I just trust IPS more than any other technology :)
A lot of computers with OLED displays use PWM for the low brightness levels, and he seems like the type of person who would be sensitive to that sort of thing.
Author doesn't cite how they decided that only MacBook or Framework would fit their needs. I've never had trouble with Dell laptops with any Linux distro I cared about. If I wanted a powerful Linux laptop, I'd probably look at something like Dell's premium model:
My first laptop back in 2005ish or so was a Dell Latitude. Ran XP until Vista came out and I switch to Linux which it ran for a couple years until it was stolen from my car. I recall unimaginable pain and suffering due to wifi, which, IIRC, I side-stepped by buying replacing the stock Broadcom card with an Atheros card and I'm certain is not nearly much of an issue as it used to be.
I've had two Dell XPS laptops (a 13" 2015 model and a 15" 2-in-1 2018 model). Both had significant touchpad issues: not sure if that's a driver thing or a hardware thing, but both would sometimes act as if there was a phantom touch somewhere on the trackpad which messed with my actual input. One of them had a keyboard where key caps of frequently used keys (super, shift, ctrl) would split in two after a ~year of use; this was not fixed under warranty, I paid out of pocket after a year of ownership, another year later it happened again.
After those two Dell XPS laptops, I got a MacBook Pro 2021 with an M1 Pro instead of getting the keyboard fixed again. No issues. Linux support isn't great, but at least macOS is a relatively competent UNIX so it's fine.
I might consider another non-Mac laptop in the future. But it's not gonna be a Dell.
Mostly Arch Linux at the time, though I've had Elementary OS on it as well. I used to run i3 (and eventually Sway) on it, which worked well since I could have a keyboard-centric workflow and not rely o bc the trackpad.
> One option is the Framework 13 given that it solves at least some issues I have with the Framework 16 (e.g. it's bulkiness and inability to lower the brightness further), but it also seems to share many of the other issues such as poor speaker quality and (at least from hat I could find) worse heat regulation, and a (possibly) worse battery.
The speakers are bad, but as a 13 owner I don't see or understand the heat or battery complaints specifically vs. the 16, it's considerably better on both fronts in the current iterations of the 13.
Unless you're comparing them to a Mac running macOS? It isn't clear, but in which case yeah, obviously it's worse than a Mac.
What I don't understand is why you bought the 16 instead of the 13. You didn't seem to need or use the discrete GPU, which is arguably the entire reason it exists. The only other feature you mention as useful that the 13 doesn't have is QMK support.
> A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working, specifically the 5, 6, -, = and Delete keys. Sometimes I can get it working again by mashing one of them for a while, but it's not consistent.
I had the same problem on my X1 Carbon generation 6 and managed to fix it simply by disconnecting and reconnecting the keyboard ribbon cable. It's a very easy fix, the only thing you have to unscrew is the bottom cover.
I've had a Framework 13 for nearly a year, been very happy with it, I've taken it on international work trips but it mostly sits on my desk with external displays attached. I ran Windows on it until I switched jobs, now its Ubuntu.
I also have an X1 Nano, which I love too, its the around-the-house laptop and a great little machine but whenever it dies, if I replace it at all, it will likely be with another Framework (perhaps the 12")
The real test will be in 2-3 years when I'm itching for an upgrade, assuming Framework is still around, I'll be able to swap out the MoBo and leave everything else as-is. We'll see.
The Framework 16 seems like a pretty unappealing device to me due to the bulk and cost, which is unfortunate. I have a 13 and absolutely love it, but the one thing is that I wish it had a direct PCI-e extension slot that I could use with an e-GPU. Thunderbolt is just too slow.
Im in a frustrating situation now where my laptop has a way faster CPU than my desktop, and my desktop has a way faster GPU than the laptop. I really wish I could use my big fancy GPU with my laptop without a massive performance loss.
>A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working
For a couple decades I was running exclusively Thinkpads, and always loved replacing the keyboard because it made it feel like an entirely new laptop. It also usually was quite easy and inexpensive. Probably worth doing in this case if there are no good alternatives.
Unfortunately, the X1 Carbon is, due to the form factor, a bit tricky, but probably won't take more than an hour or two depending on your skill level. You have to go in through the back, and there are around 100 screws that need to be removed and reinstalled.
Could be worse though, I replaced a friends daughter's keyboard in her Dell, and that was a similar remove-the-motherboard operation, but the keyboard was plastic welded in place.
Nothing beats a MacBook Air if you’re not chasing raw performance.
I ended up with two machines:
- MacBook Air (16GB)
- MINISFORUM UM870 with 48GB RAM
The Air is unbeatable for portability and battery life. The MinisForum is still “portable enough” and gives me real horsepower when I need it.
I flew SF -> NY -> SF with the MinisForum and a portable monitor as carry-on. Everything fit in a Trader Joe’s tote bag. I even presented a conference talk using that setup.
For ~$2k total, you can buy:
- a MacBook Air
- a small PC + one or two portable monitors
- and still have money left
IMO the era of $2-3–4k “do-everything” laptops is over. I don't see how and why they're competitive.
Sorry your product experience was sub-par. We have four of the various revisions and the quality is on par with the other laptops in the price bracket. Framework versus MacBook - Not even a comparison - One of them you can do whatever you want with, and the other not so much. Linux is the best option for these computers, as with Windozers the battery life is worse. Baseline CPU idle on a clean linux install is like 0.5% - this results in a low power use battery life of about 7 hours on the 13" model under web browsing/audio playing loads.
TL;dr Framework isn't worth the price. If you put it apples to apples with a great product like the M1, Framework loses everywhere.
I had the same conclusion after daily driving both for 2 years; until yesterday, when my water bottle opened in my backpack and soaked them.
When I got home, I ripped apart my Framework and dried each piece. I left the M1 by my heater and tried to dry it out. This morning, I put the Framework back together, and everything except the keyboard works. The M1 won't boot.
While I did pay a ridiculous amount for my Framework, the keyboard is 50$ to replace. After the M1 design had me feeling it was more premium, it ultimately failed first.
As the multiple siblings say, let it sit. Some desiccant next to it to suck moisture out of the air will help - rice is famously OK for this - no need to put it in the desiccant. A little bit of airflow is also good.
You may also find that rotating it into different positions accelerates it.
To be fair I once spilled water all over my Macbook's keyboard. It wouldn't boot for weeks afterward. I got a new computer and then checked back a few months later and my Macbook was magically able to boot.
The battery life doesn't appear to be all that better than conventional laptops when running Linux. This isn't entirely surprising because of a lot of the battery improvements on macOS are the result of the software and hardware integration, not just the hardware
The issue is the kernel here, not just the hardware. Linux power management is meh.
I have a Framework 16 from one of the early batches (2023, think it was ~1000usd).
> Not only does [the spacers] look weird, you can also feel the gap and edges when resting your palm on them ... and the edges are quite sharp. If you have arm hairs you may consider shaving them off or risk getting them stuck. I also suspect gunk will build up in these edges over time.
> There's also a practical problem: due to the flex of the spacers if you try to hold the laptop on its sides it will actually "wobble" a bit. Combined with the weight I suspect that unless you hold on to this laptop for dear life, you will at some point drop it.
I can confirm the spacers are raised with an edge (though sharp might be overstating it). It's even at a slightly different height than the touchpad, which is probably more defect than intentional. But I'm not picky about the aesthetics so I don't mind the lines / colors.
Can't say I've had issues with the spacers actually flexing or accumulating gunk though. And I carry it one-handed by gripping the corner with the spacer all the time.
> The keycaps are a little mushy, which isn't too bad but not great either.
Yeah this is an apt description. My biggest gripe is that the keycaps are near impossible to remove / clean without breaking something.
> The display isn't terrible, but it's not great either.
I had the chance to compare my framework (ips, 165hz, 2560x1600) with some newer laptops recently (3x oled, 2x ips). I was pretty impressed with the colors, very little difference compared to the OLEDs and much better than the shitty IPSs. Text was as sharp as the 3k OLEDs and sharper than the 2k OLEDs. But OLEDs (obviously) had the advantage for darker / high-contrast images.
> I didn't do any proper testing of battery usage, but it seems to be on par with other Linux capable laptops based on my usage thus far. This means you'll likely be looking at 6-8 hours of battery per charge for average programming usage.
Pretty much. Tangent but the new intel ultra cpus (the ones that end with V) have amazing battery life. I clocked maybe 16 hours browsing the web / watching youtube.
> For a premium price I expect a premium laptop, but the Framework 16 feels more like a €1200-€1500 laptop at best and certainly doesn't deliver a premium experience.
Yeah premium price without the specs and aesthetic to match. But I guess the premium is because of the modularity and (presumably) low production count. Plus I trust Framework's QA a hell of a lot more than any of the dozen HP / Lenovos I've owned. And it is nice that a failed keyboard / touchpad doesn't force me to buy a new machine (which has happened to me because of a spill).
I'd return my Framework laptop if that was still an option. First they sent me bad RAM, and left me on my own to sort it out with Crucial, which never went anywhere. The mainboard has some weird power issue that prevents the modular ports, which are otherwise a cool idea, from working properly, and I went back and forth with support about that for two years before they finally told me it was out of warranty so I was SoL.
They replaced the hinges on a batch 5 this year for free when I finally complained about it. I just asked nicely and showed them a video of a fan blowing the screen down. New ones are tuned as expected.
I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn.
Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.
People (not necessarily the author, but likely many commentators that make similar complains about the frameworks price) will lament how manufacturers don’t have upgradable ram, etc and then turn around and are upset at the bulkiness of a repairable laptop, or the price.
I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though.
Rergardless, what I feel like we see here (along with a lack of scale from a small company) is the core tradeoffs that we’d have to make to get back repairability, etc. framework certainly isn’t above criticism, but if you don’t care about these things then why look at this machine? A large established brand is always going to offer a a better value on the things you care about.
Value wise when trying to spec out my personal Lenovo laptop on framework, it'd never get anywhere close to being worth it even if I completely made use of the hardware after a future upgrade.
Framework makes sense if you're going in on the sustainability idea, but other than that it's really just an expensive laptop that's not compelling against its competitors
I can swap out my mobo for a RISC-V mobo, or ARM.
Get away from Intel and management engine.
Dave2D made the argument that you could buy another laptop for the same price as upgrading the Framework 16. This makes it hard to accept the quality tradeoffs.
I think what’s lost here is when the framework project was launched, all the companies were moving to SoC designs and reliability was unknown.
Replacing a stick of ram is still much cheaper than buying a whole new MacBook, but these systems seem to be reliable enough that ram failures aren’t front of mind. Same for SSDs.
> replacing a stick of ram
How often does your RAM fail you?
Gaming laptops tend to have replaceable RAM and SSD so the advantage of Framework 16 is much less.
you get another mainboard to use as a sever or resell
> an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine
The market assigns almost no value to these tenets, nor do the consumers participating in it.
I guess repair-ability only matters if you expect the laptop to break. And there's no benchmarks for durability. But yeah I agree that upgrade-ability is of dubious value for most people.
>Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only briefly is there mention of the configurability.
I'm convinced that a lot of people have Dunning-Kruger effect when it comes to niche products like Framework. The fact that Framework exists at all is amazing, and like you said, it's frustrating to see the lack of understanding of the core value proposition of Framework both in this post and HN.
I think you’ve brought a really interesting point up. A lot of these laptops are the way they are because miniaturisation. Framework trades that off. But for some, this tradeoff isn’t in the right spot.
The challenge for framework is to build a modern laptop, that doesn’t have these tradeoffs. Which is an impossible challenge, hence why all of the other manufacturers ditched it. (That and repairability being bad for business)
So, a framework laptop, that’s as light, thin and fast as a mbp, while being a comparable price and being able to pull tabs to swap ram. The better their engineering, the closer they get to this and the more customers they can please.
Is 2000 eur even a lot of money? I think that gets you into better than dogshit laptop territory but I'd hesitate to claim that a 2000 eur purchase every >5 years puts you in "luxury" territory.
For a good laptop it wouldn't be too bad, i.e. my X1 Carbon cost me about the same back in 2019 if I remember correctly. But it's ultimately about the price/quality trade-off, and this is where I feel Framework has some work to do, at least with the 16 inch model.
>Is 2000 eur even a lot of money?
It’s my entire professional life’s computer investment - a MacBook Pro in 2013 and an m1 MacBook on 2020.
The author seems to be very aware of the benefit of upgradability, but thats not an excuse for the shoddy experience. Some of the issues the author mentions are just absurd. Sharp edges, panels that creak? Come on.
I have a 12th Gen 13. No problems like that.
I feel like Framework wasn’t for this customer. They would have been happier with a Lenovo or something or a Mac.
I agree, although I do not think even Lenovo would be enough.
I dual boot Asahi and Mac OS X on my Macbook Air, and haven't had any problems with suspend. IMO the two biggest problems are lack of USB-C display output (although this is less of a problem with the Macbook Pro since you can use HDMI) and having to deal with x86 emulation (inherent to an ARM laptop).
It seems like he's looking for a PC laptop with Apple build quality and display quality, and there definitely aren't many options there. I'm not sure why he even considered the Framework, it's pretty obvious from looking at it that the downside for the configurability is the laptop not being as solidly built as less configurable/repairable alternatives. I would have suggested a Dell XPS if he's ruled out the X1 Carbon, but it looks like Dell still hasn't backtracked from their decision to ruin the XPS keyboard by replacing the function keys with an even less functional ripoff of the Apple touchbar from 10 years ago. I guess the best move is to suck it up and go with the X1 Carbon and deal with the screen resolution for the IPS version being 1200p.
Just curious in case somebody knows. Are OLED displays in laptops bad at low light? He cites that as a reason he doesn’t want OLED, but I’ve never noticed such a problem on OLED phones.
I'm using an OLED X1 Carbon right now in the UK. I use it all the time in low light.
I just turned all the lights off (even the Christmas tree) and ran through a handful of usage situations and couldn't see any issues. I turned some lights on and did the same, I couldn't see any issues. I asked Claude, and got told to do the finger test, and that is barely perceptible. I then used my phone to record the screen and yes - I can confirm that there is an effect that my pixel 9a's camera picks up, barely noticeable at 240Hz, and definitely noticeable at 480Hz.
Maybe the guy is particularly sensitive, but from the framing of the rest of the article I think he's blowing a few things out of proportion.
I probably should've done a better job at clarifying this, but my issue with OLEDs isn't just that (at least historically) they tend to be too bright even at lower brightness, but also the other issues they come with such as burn-in and text potentially looking less pleasant compared to IPSs displays. Burn-in is probably my biggest concern here, especially since it really seems to be a case of winning the lottery or not (i.e. for some it's fine for years, others get burn-in after just a few months).
Basically I just trust IPS more than any other technology :)
A lot of computers with OLED displays use PWM for the low brightness levels, and he seems like the type of person who would be sensitive to that sort of thing.
OLED phones are bad because of flicker
On iPhones at least you can disable PWM dimming at lower brightness level at the expense of color accuracy. It's in Accessibility/Display settings.
Now tell me a model which has this given that OLEDs are here since iPhone X
Hint: the only one was released in a year that ends with 25
Author doesn't cite how they decided that only MacBook or Framework would fit their needs. I've never had trouble with Dell laptops with any Linux distro I cared about. If I wanted a powerful Linux laptop, I'd probably look at something like Dell's premium model:
https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/laptops-ultrabooks/dell-16-p...
My first laptop back in 2005ish or so was a Dell Latitude. Ran XP until Vista came out and I switch to Linux which it ran for a couple years until it was stolen from my car. I recall unimaginable pain and suffering due to wifi, which, IIRC, I side-stepped by buying replacing the stock Broadcom card with an Atheros card and I'm certain is not nearly much of an issue as it used to be.
2005 is a really long time ago.
I've had two Dell XPS laptops (a 13" 2015 model and a 15" 2-in-1 2018 model). Both had significant touchpad issues: not sure if that's a driver thing or a hardware thing, but both would sometimes act as if there was a phantom touch somewhere on the trackpad which messed with my actual input. One of them had a keyboard where key caps of frequently used keys (super, shift, ctrl) would split in two after a ~year of use; this was not fixed under warranty, I paid out of pocket after a year of ownership, another year later it happened again.
After those two Dell XPS laptops, I got a MacBook Pro 2021 with an M1 Pro instead of getting the keyboard fixed again. No issues. Linux support isn't great, but at least macOS is a relatively competent UNIX so it's fine.
I might consider another non-Mac laptop in the future. But it's not gonna be a Dell.
I have had many Dells that have been great with FreeBSD and with Linux. You do have to do your research though.
Frankly, I wouldn't expect any touchscreen to work with Linux. That's not a Dell issue though.
I think I may have the same 2015 13" model you are describing. Which distro were you running out of curiosity?
Mostly Arch Linux at the time, though I've had Elementary OS on it as well. I used to run i3 (and eventually Sway) on it, which worked well since I could have a keyboard-centric workflow and not rely o bc the trackpad.
Huh. I wonder if they were both hardware issues. I've run arch on my laptop with no issues.
Please don't trigger my Dell PTSD. This is garbage tier hardware designed to harass employees.
Nothing says quality like a display option with a picture comparable to a cheap portable DVD player from 2007.
Ok
> One option is the Framework 13 given that it solves at least some issues I have with the Framework 16 (e.g. it's bulkiness and inability to lower the brightness further), but it also seems to share many of the other issues such as poor speaker quality and (at least from hat I could find) worse heat regulation, and a (possibly) worse battery.
The speakers are bad, but as a 13 owner I don't see or understand the heat or battery complaints specifically vs. the 16, it's considerably better on both fronts in the current iterations of the 13.
Unless you're comparing them to a Mac running macOS? It isn't clear, but in which case yeah, obviously it's worse than a Mac.
What I don't understand is why you bought the 16 instead of the 13. You didn't seem to need or use the discrete GPU, which is arguably the entire reason it exists. The only other feature you mention as useful that the 13 doesn't have is QMK support.
> A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working, specifically the 5, 6, -, = and Delete keys. Sometimes I can get it working again by mashing one of them for a while, but it's not consistent.
I had the same problem on my X1 Carbon generation 6 and managed to fix it simply by disconnecting and reconnecting the keyboard ribbon cable. It's a very easy fix, the only thing you have to unscrew is the bottom cover.
I've had a Framework 13 for nearly a year, been very happy with it, I've taken it on international work trips but it mostly sits on my desk with external displays attached. I ran Windows on it until I switched jobs, now its Ubuntu.
I also have an X1 Nano, which I love too, its the around-the-house laptop and a great little machine but whenever it dies, if I replace it at all, it will likely be with another Framework (perhaps the 12")
The real test will be in 2-3 years when I'm itching for an upgrade, assuming Framework is still around, I'll be able to swap out the MoBo and leave everything else as-is. We'll see.
The Framework 16 seems like a pretty unappealing device to me due to the bulk and cost, which is unfortunate. I have a 13 and absolutely love it, but the one thing is that I wish it had a direct PCI-e extension slot that I could use with an e-GPU. Thunderbolt is just too slow.
Im in a frustrating situation now where my laptop has a way faster CPU than my desktop, and my desktop has a way faster GPU than the laptop. I really wish I could use my big fancy GPU with my laptop without a massive performance loss.
>A few months ago a few keys of the keyboard stopped working
For a couple decades I was running exclusively Thinkpads, and always loved replacing the keyboard because it made it feel like an entirely new laptop. It also usually was quite easy and inexpensive. Probably worth doing in this case if there are no good alternatives.
Unfortunately, the X1 Carbon is, due to the form factor, a bit tricky, but probably won't take more than an hour or two depending on your skill level. You have to go in through the back, and there are around 100 screws that need to be removed and reinstalled.
Could be worse though, I replaced a friends daughter's keyboard in her Dell, and that was a similar remove-the-motherboard operation, but the keyboard was plastic welded in place.
Nothing beats a MacBook Air if you’re not chasing raw performance.
I ended up with two machines:
- MacBook Air (16GB)
- MINISFORUM UM870 with 48GB RAM
The Air is unbeatable for portability and battery life. The MinisForum is still “portable enough” and gives me real horsepower when I need it.
I flew SF -> NY -> SF with the MinisForum and a portable monitor as carry-on. Everything fit in a Trader Joe’s tote bag. I even presented a conference talk using that setup.
For ~$2k total, you can buy:
- a MacBook Air
- a small PC + one or two portable monitors
- and still have money left
IMO the era of $2-3–4k “do-everything” laptops is over. I don't see how and why they're competitive.
Sorry your product experience was sub-par. We have four of the various revisions and the quality is on par with the other laptops in the price bracket. Framework versus MacBook - Not even a comparison - One of them you can do whatever you want with, and the other not so much. Linux is the best option for these computers, as with Windozers the battery life is worse. Baseline CPU idle on a clean linux install is like 0.5% - this results in a low power use battery life of about 7 hours on the 13" model under web browsing/audio playing loads.
> I read various reports of the Framework 13 having issues with poor battery life, fan noise, heating, etc
Intriguing, I read the same but instead for the Framework 16. I ended up getting the AMD 7040 Framework 13 because of those reviews.
TL;dr Framework isn't worth the price. If you put it apples to apples with a great product like the M1, Framework loses everywhere.
I had the same conclusion after daily driving both for 2 years; until yesterday, when my water bottle opened in my backpack and soaked them.
When I got home, I ripped apart my Framework and dried each piece. I left the M1 by my heater and tried to dry it out. This morning, I put the Framework back together, and everything except the keyboard works. The M1 won't boot.
While I did pay a ridiculous amount for my Framework, the keyboard is 50$ to replace. After the M1 design had me feeling it was more premium, it ultimately failed first.
As the multiple siblings say, let it sit. Some desiccant next to it to suck moisture out of the air will help - rice is famously OK for this - no need to put it in the desiccant. A little bit of airflow is also good.
You may also find that rotating it into different positions accelerates it.
To be fair I once spilled water all over my Macbook's keyboard. It wouldn't boot for weeks afterward. I got a new computer and then checked back a few months later and my Macbook was magically able to boot.
As the sibling says, it’s definitely worth waiting at least a week or two to see if the M1 recovers. I’ve had the same experience.
I'm still schlepping around with various used thinkpads. Maybe we get another HP Dev One that sells well this time.
He bought the last likely to be compatible and oversized option.
Of course he didn't like it.
I have a Framework 16 from one of the early batches (2023, think it was ~1000usd).
> Not only does [the spacers] look weird, you can also feel the gap and edges when resting your palm on them ... and the edges are quite sharp. If you have arm hairs you may consider shaving them off or risk getting them stuck. I also suspect gunk will build up in these edges over time. > There's also a practical problem: due to the flex of the spacers if you try to hold the laptop on its sides it will actually "wobble" a bit. Combined with the weight I suspect that unless you hold on to this laptop for dear life, you will at some point drop it.
I can confirm the spacers are raised with an edge (though sharp might be overstating it). It's even at a slightly different height than the touchpad, which is probably more defect than intentional. But I'm not picky about the aesthetics so I don't mind the lines / colors.
Can't say I've had issues with the spacers actually flexing or accumulating gunk though. And I carry it one-handed by gripping the corner with the spacer all the time.
> The keycaps are a little mushy, which isn't too bad but not great either.
Yeah this is an apt description. My biggest gripe is that the keycaps are near impossible to remove / clean without breaking something.
> The display isn't terrible, but it's not great either.
I had the chance to compare my framework (ips, 165hz, 2560x1600) with some newer laptops recently (3x oled, 2x ips). I was pretty impressed with the colors, very little difference compared to the OLEDs and much better than the shitty IPSs. Text was as sharp as the 3k OLEDs and sharper than the 2k OLEDs. But OLEDs (obviously) had the advantage for darker / high-contrast images.
> I didn't do any proper testing of battery usage, but it seems to be on par with other Linux capable laptops based on my usage thus far. This means you'll likely be looking at 6-8 hours of battery per charge for average programming usage.
Pretty much. Tangent but the new intel ultra cpus (the ones that end with V) have amazing battery life. I clocked maybe 16 hours browsing the web / watching youtube.
> For a premium price I expect a premium laptop, but the Framework 16 feels more like a €1200-€1500 laptop at best and certainly doesn't deliver a premium experience.
Yeah premium price without the specs and aesthetic to match. But I guess the premium is because of the modularity and (presumably) low production count. Plus I trust Framework's QA a hell of a lot more than any of the dozen HP / Lenovos I've owned. And it is nice that a failed keyboard / touchpad doesn't force me to buy a new machine (which has happened to me because of a spill).
What about Qualcomm's Windows ARM M1 competitor?
X Elite is mostly regarded as a dud.
I'd return my Framework laptop if that was still an option. First they sent me bad RAM, and left me on my own to sort it out with Crucial, which never went anywhere. The mainboard has some weird power issue that prevents the modular ports, which are otherwise a cool idea, from working properly, and I went back and forth with support about that for two years before they finally told me it was out of warranty so I was SoL.
Then there's the screen that falls backwards.
Should've bought an old Thinkpad, instead.
They replaced the hinges on a batch 5 this year for free when I finally complained about it. I just asked nicely and showed them a video of a fan blowing the screen down. New ones are tuned as expected.
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